Debate and Discussion

Why I would vote for Barack Obama
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:53PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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He agrees that the party system is pointless.

Yet he is running for the nomination of a pointless major party…

Hypocrisy anyone?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Fuzzy Modem at 1:04PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Fuzzy Modem
He agrees that the party system is pointless.

Yet he is running for the nomination of a pointless major party…

Hypocrisy anyone?

You can't change the system from the outside.


I've given up following my dreams. I just asked where they're going and I'm gonna meet them there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:13PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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You can't change the system from the outside.

You sound so optomistic.

Just like the followers of Ross Perot did several years back. Old Ross would blather some gibberish about his crazy old aunt and his followers would hear from it exactly what they wanted to hear, often getting completely different interpretations from the same bit of gibberish.

Hang onto that dream. Let it carry you high.

In that way your hopes will make a much more satisfying thump when they hit the ground.
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Fuzzy Modem at 1:18PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Name one pessimist that ever accomplished anything.

Besides Poe or Van gogh… someone who accomplished social change.

I'm a glass half full kinda guy these days, and it's working out pretty well for me.

Worked pretty well for Gandhi too. And Martin Luther King jr, and JFK, and John Lennon, and Jesus, etc.


I've given up following my dreams. I just asked where they're going and I'm gonna meet them there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:53PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Fuzzy Modem
Name one pessimist that ever accomplished anything.

Besides Poe or Van gogh… someone who accomplished social change.

I'd say they accomplished quite a bit… Maybe not much “social change” but that's over rated anyhow.

Fuzzy Modem
Worked pretty well for Gandhi too. And Martin Luther King jr, and JFK, and John Lennon, and Jesus, etc.

Except that they all were assassinated… Well, Jesus (allegedly) was executed, but still, a very unnatural death.

Anyhow, they all got whacked. I think I'll remain an alive pessimist instead of a dead before my time optimist.
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Fuzzy Modem at 2:06PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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To each his own.

I will say though, that my defninition of a “hero” is someone who never gives up, who keeps reaching for a goal, even if they die in the process. Reaching the goal is less important than never giving up. IMHO. You're gonna die either way.


I've given up following my dreams. I just asked where they're going and I'm gonna meet them there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:22PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Fuzzy Modem
my definition of a “hero” is someone who never gives up, who keeps reaching for a goal, even if they die in the process

I prefer Zoe's definition. A hero is someone who gets other people killed.

Fuzzy Modem
Reaching the goal is less important than never giving up.

Yes, of course. Never give up, never surrender… Sounds great on the movie screen but no so great when reality gets in the way.

You go ahead and sacrifice your future trying to save folks from stuff they don't want to be saved from. Go ahead and dedicate your life to helping candidates that will ignore you after they win, unless your help was the green kind with large numbers on it. Go ahead and spend your youth on such enlightened goals, all the better to make you a bitter old man when all your efforts get you nothing but pain.
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Fuzzy Modem at 3:34PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Better than giving up.

In my own experiance:

If I'd listened to the voices telling me not to go talk to that girl, that she was out of my league, that I was kidding myself, I wouldent be engaged to be married (nor I would I be having crazy monkey sex tonight.)

If I'd given up and accepted that fathers simply get screwed in custody battles, that there was no point in even trying, I wouldent have primary custody of my kid today. She'd be living 400 miles away.

If I'd given up on my comic book, accepted that it was just to much work for one person, that it was never going to come together, that I just wasn't a good enough artist, I wouldent have 40,000 readers, and I wouldent be celebrating my first hard copy release on Friday.

Without optimism there is no hope. You've failed before you began.


I've given up following my dreams. I just asked where they're going and I'm gonna meet them there.
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bobhhh at 8:40PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Second, Hitler? Come on. Hitler was a liberal. A national socialist. Anti smoker, anti gun, anti religious….

Hitler wasn't a liberal, he was a tyrant. Liberals are concerned with the liberty of individuals, and protection of individual freedoms from those in the central government who would attempt to take them away, like a dictator. But then again I don't really think you believe this, I know you just like to say things like that to piss people off.

I do agree with you that calling Republicans Nazis is wrong though, it's giving the GOP way too much credit.

Nazis, however misguided, were ferverent patriots and at least had an idealism about their vision of purity and cruel oppression. They weren't petty criminals like the neocons who are soley interested in raping their own country along with the rest of the world for every last penny they can steal.
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bobhhh at 8:48PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Yes, of course. Never give up, never surrender… Sounds great on the movie screen but no so great when reality gets in the way.

Isn't it ironic that you can spout this gibberish because you live in a country that was founded by people who didn't give up or surrender? Heroes can effect change and don't always end up worm food for doing so.

See: Washington, Jefferson, Addams, Franklin. All heroes.
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Fuzzy Modem at 9:23PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
See: Washington, Jefferson, Addams, Franklin. All heroes.

Throw Lincoln in there and you'll have yourself an “AMEN” brother!

:)


I've given up following my dreams. I just asked where they're going and I'm gonna meet them there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 8:46AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Hitler wasn't a liberal, he was a tyrant. Liberals are concerned with the liberty of individuals, and protection of individual freedoms from those in the central government who would attempt to take them away, like a dictator.

Hitlers positions were left of center. He certainly wasn't taking positions on the right. I know it's painful to realize that left wingers can become tyrants just as easily as right wingers can but you need to get over it.

Most of the really good tyrants in history were in fact left leaning types. Socialists, communists, collectivists and labor types. While I'm certain those on the right have risen to lead tyrannical regimes too the left seems to breed well meaning tyrants who do far more damage in the name of helping out the little guy.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 8:48AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Throw Lincoln in there and you'll have yourself an “AMEN” brother!

You mean the Lincoln who suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a draft, placed cities under martial law, levied the first income tax and ordered the arrest of a Supreme Court Justice? That Lincoln?
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bobhhh at 9:20AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Hitler wasn't a liberal, he was a tyrant. Liberals are concerned with the liberty of individuals, and protection of individual freedoms from those in the central government who would attempt to take them away, like a dictator.

Hitlers positions were left of center. He certainly wasn't taking positions on the right. I know it's painful to realize that left wingers can become tyrants just as easily as right wingers can but you need to get over it.

Most of the really good tyrants in history were in fact left leaning types. Socialists, communists, collectivists and labor types. While I'm certain those on the right have risen to lead tyrannical regimes too the left seems to breed well meaning tyrants who do far more damage in the name of helping out the little guy.

Explain to me again how Hitler was a liberal? You're not making any sense.
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bobhhh at 9:21AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Throw Lincoln in there and you'll have yourself an “AMEN” brother!

You mean the Lincoln who suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a draft, placed cities under martial law, levied the first income tax and ordered the arrest of a Supreme Court Justice? That Lincoln?

Way to dodge my point about the founding fathers who sacrificed for your freedom.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 9:52AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Way to dodge my point about the founding fathers who sacrificed for your freedom.

Ah, the great founders mythology. Almost as good as the whole Easter Bunny thing.

They sacrificed for the freedom of white landowners to not be a colony of Great Britain. Had Alexander Hamilton gotten his way the US would be a monarchy with the state governors appointed by the king. Hamilton despised the idea of giving the masses any control over the machinery of the state. Washington favored Hamilton's ideas over Jefferson's and if it weren't for the very hot summer in Philadelphia we may have wound up with more of Hamilton's dream than Jefferson's.

bobhhh
Explain to me again how Hitler was a liberal? You're not making any sense.

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JONAH GOLDBERG is a columnist for the Los Angeles Times and contributing editor to National Review. A USA Today contributor and former columnist for the Times of London, he has also written for The New Yorker, Commentary, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. He lives in Washington, D.C.
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bobhhh at 10:05AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Confiscating money isn't a liberal action. Taxing fairly is not confiscating.

Supressing religion is not a liberal trait, freedom of religion is.

Spending money on propaganda schools is not the same as spending money on education.

A strong central government that imposes it's will to the subjugation of individual rights is not liberal, Liberals champion individual rights at the expense of the federal goverment, ask the ACLU.

If Hitler was such a lefty, then why di the real socialists hate him so much? Why was it only the rich people in America who championed him and his accomplishments before the war?? The fact that he called his party socialists is like the the Soviets calling themselves communists, or George bush calling himself a compassionate conservative. It's just PR.

I'm sorry your wiki quoted muckraking source was just trying to create headlines with a compelling notion, that doesn't make your wild assertions fact.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 10:10AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Confiscating money isn't a liberal action. Taxing fairly is not confiscating.

Yes, because higher rates for people with more income is totaly fair…

bobhhh
A strong central government that imposes it's will to the subjugation of individual rights is not liberal, Liberals champion individual rights at the expense of the federal goverment, ask the ACLU.

Oh you really have drank the liberal kool-aid…
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bobhhh at 10:11AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
bobhhh
Way to dodge my point about the founding fathers who sacrificed for your freedom.

Ah, the great founders mythology. Almost as good as the whole Easter Bunny thing.

They sacrificed for the freedom of white landowners to not be a colony of Great Britain. Had Alexander Hamilton gotten his way the US would be a monarchy with the state governors appointed by the king. Hamilton despised the idea of giving the masses any control over the machinery of the state. Washington favored Hamilton's ideas over Jefferson's and if it weren't for the very hot summer in Philadelphia we may have wound up with more of Hamilton's dream than Jefferson's.

Notice I didn't mention Hamilton. Whatever Washington did as president, he sacrificed his comfortable life as an english gentlemen to win independence for America, and when offered the crown upon victory refused to accept America as a monarchy.

Hamilton was a jerk and was soon shot to death for being one. Jeffereson, Addams and Franklin on the other hand were great men, no matter how much you don't care, and once again, heroes who prove that optimism is no vice and not neceesarily a death sentence entered into for no logical reason as you have implied earlier in this thread.
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bobhhh at 10:13AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Confiscating money isn't a liberal action. Taxing fairly is not confiscating.

Yes, because higher rates for people with more income is totaly fair…

sure is, those who can afford to contribute more.
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imshard at 10:20AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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It is not fair at all. Namely because the rich dodge taxes like vampires avoid sunlight. Having moved through multiple tax brackets myself I can tell you that uncle sam puts on a sandpaper condom for people in higher brackets and it is the greatest barrier to becoming wealthy and successful for those working their way up in the world. It is just the jealous thinking of those that don't have as much money trying to get even with the “rich” when you say: “they can afford more”.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 10:20AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Notice I didn't mention Hamilton.

Yes, he is quite the embarrassment in that whole mythology. Kinda like the Gnostics are to the Catholics.

bobhhh
Whatever Washington did as president, he sacrificed his comfortable life as an english gentlemen to win independence for America, and when offered the crown upon victory refused to accept America as a monarchy.

However he gave Hamilton one of the most powerful positions in his government and valued his advise over all others.

bobhhh
Hamilton was a jerk and was soon shot to death for being one.

No, he was killed over the fact that Burr had lost his race for the NY Governorship, and it came to his attention that Hamilton had said some untoward things about him during the campaign.

But keep the illusions going if it helps you get through the day.
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bobhhh at 10:35AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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It is not fair at all. Namely because the rich dodge taxes like vampires avoid sunlight. Having moved through multiple tax brackets myself I can tell you that uncle sam puts on a sandpaper condom for people in higher brackets and it is the greatest barrier to becoming wealthy and successful for those working their way up in the world. It is just the jealous thinking of those that don't have as much money trying to get even with the “rich” when you say: “they can afford more”.

Well they can, can't they? I'm not making that up. And I'm not talking about enterprising people making up to 200-300 thousand, trying to work their way up the chain, I'm talking about the super rich 1 percent who own 95 percent of all the wealth in America, they have sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more, they can bleed hundreds and not feel it. Why shouldn't these multi millionaires and billionaires pay a little more to help the keep the government flush?
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bobhhh at 10:37AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Hamilton was a jerk and was soon shot to death for being one.

No, he was killed over the fact that Burr had lost his race for the NY Governorship, and it came to his attention that Hamilton had said some untoward things about him during the campaign.

But keep the illusions going if it helps you get through the day.

Yeah he said some disparraging things, like some other people I know.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 10:41AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Yeah he said some disparraging things, like some other people I know.

Does this mean you are going to burn my trailer down?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19980505/
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imshard at 10:42AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
imshard
It is not fair at all. Namely because the rich dodge taxes like vampires avoid sunlight. Having moved through multiple tax brackets myself I can tell you that uncle sam puts on a sandpaper condom for people in higher brackets and it is the greatest barrier to becoming wealthy and successful for those working their way up in the world. It is just the jealous thinking of those that don't have as much money trying to get even with the “rich” when you say: “they can afford more”.

Well they can, can't they? I'm not making that up. And I'm not talking about enterprising people making up to 200-300 thousand, trying to work their way up the chain, I'm talking about the super rich 1 percent who own 95 percent of all the wealth in America, they have sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more, they can bleed hundreds and not feel it. Why shouldn't these multi millionaires and billionaires pay a little more to help the keep the government flush?

Namely because anytime you try to increase taxes on the rich it just ends up hurting us entrepreneurs who had to work our way up or worse those with families struggling to break the poverty line. I've yet to break the six digit line because of taxes. the “95%” will never end up paying more because most of them either write the tax laws or practically own the people that do.
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bobhhh at 10:49AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Namely because anytime you try to increase taxes on the rich it just ends up hurting us entrepreneurs who had to work our way up or worse those with families struggling to break the poverty line. I've yet to break the six digit line because of taxes. the “95%” will never end up paying more because most of them either write the tax laws or practically own the people that do.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean They shouldn't pay more than you and I, it just means they don't which I agree sucks and is unfair.
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imshard at 12:05PM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Thus I recommend implementation of the fair tax because it is extremely easy for the IRS to track rich people's spending habits. I'm a staunch supporter of tax reform. At the least we need to find a system where people aren't punished for being successful.
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SpANG at 12:52PM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Rich people aren't being asked to pay more. they are being asked to pay their FAIR SHARE. Why exactly is it unfair to ask a person that is making more money to pay the PERCENTAGE EQUIVALENT of middle class and poor? It seems totally fair to me.

If they did, it would certainly help middle class folk from always having to shell it out.
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imshard at 1:07PM, Dec. 12, 2007
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SpANG
Rich people aren't being asked to pay more. they are being asked to pay their FAIR SHARE. Why exactly is it unfair to ask a person that is making more money to pay the PERCENTAGE EQUIVALENT of middle class and poor? It seems totally fair to me.

If they did, it would certainly help middle class folk from always having to shell it out.

Because they aren't being asked to pay for fair percentage. With each tax bracket in the US you have to pay an increasingly larger percentage than people that earn less. And yes I'd be far more content with the tax system if it were a flat rate income tax, but it isn't and the richer you get the more adept you have to be at using tax shelters.
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