Debate and Discussion

Why is it a crime to bash Jews?
kyupol at 6:59AM, Jan. 31, 2006
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… while Christianity and Islam are being bashed left and right. We have all these things in the newspapers about Christianity and Islam being “backward”, being “oppressive to women”, etc…

But if you say something bad about Jews, it is a crime? Why?

Why is the media so unfair?
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
ozoneocean at 8:24AM, Jan. 31, 2006
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Because of the atrocities during WW2.
Yes, it's unfair considering other religions and peoples are not treated with the same consideration: Gipsies suffered a much bigger loss of their population in the death camps (proportionately) and they're still persecuted just the same as they were back then… We talk about remembering the Holocaust so that it will never happen again while ignoring the nasty fact that it has happened again (several times!), to peoples in Africa, Iran, Kosovo, Bosnia, Cambodia etc… The Chinese are treated like bad tempered children when they complain about Japan’s continued veneration of their war dead (including war criminals) by President Koizumi and Japan’s continued failure to acknowledge their full role in the many atrocities they committed in China, Korea and much of South East Asia during WW2.

We are growing out of this silliness with these bizarre double standards, but it’s hard. Europe has treated Jewish people savagely for centuries, WW2 was just the climax. Modern Muslim hatred for Jews has nothing on what the Christians have done, and we know it.
But the West pretty much controls the world at the moment, and the U.S.A is the leader of the West. The U.S.A is predominantly protestant Christian, with a lot of evangelicals. All the guilt is focused there, Christianity sees Jews as the ‘Chosen people’ after all. Add that to the fact that many Jewish people escaped the ravages and horrific slaughter of the Holocaust by going to America, many then went from there to found modern Israel, so all that comes together to equal world support for the Jewish people and Israel. It’s as simple as that.

We can pick on Muslims because they’ve always been totally different from the Christian West and often at war with it. We can tear apart Christianity because it’s the foundation of our own culture and you’re always allowed to disparage yourself, but it’s hands of the Jewish people!
Regarding Hindus, Buddhists, Parsees, Shinotists, Sikhs, Samaritans, or whatever else you can think of, they’re all fair game because the West doesn’t know enough about them to really care enough weather they’re offended or not.

But Im not going to be the first one to start trying to change things. :D
Things are as they are… All we can do is to try and understand why they are that way.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
isukun at 8:56AM, Jan. 31, 2006
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That's funny, I hear people make fun of Jews all the time and not just subtle stuff behind their backs, but quite often some pretty awful generalizations that make it into popular culture like TV, movies, etc. I guess you don't hear much criticizing their religion, though. Part of that may be that the Jews aren't interested in forcing their ideals on others. Many take the stance that being one of the chosen people isn't something you would want to voluntarily take on and they don't encourage people to convert or try to change society to reflect their ideal vision of the world.

.: isukun :.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
chewdy at 9:04AM, Jan. 31, 2006
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When I play a game online no one ever yells “Gay Christian”. It's ALWAYS “Gay Jew”. :P Jews get slagged on ALL the time.

But why would the media do it? You don't kick a brothah when he's down, and last I checked it was Christians running the Western world. They're far, far more kick-able. :P Why would it be unfair that the media isn't bashing on a minority without any ruling power?

Reporter: “Yes, Bush is using the Bible to smudge issues again, but hey, there's this Jew that runs a deli on my block and he's a total penny-pinching asshole.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:41AM
ccs1989 at 11:41AM, Jan. 31, 2006
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I dunno, I still hear ‘Jew’ being used by particularly bigoted people in the same way that others use the word ‘gay’.

A lot of what ozoneocean said I agree with, because people like to justify WHY it's okay to make fun of someone in the back of their minds. I guess there's just not enough reason to make fun of jews at the moment when people can find so many other things to make fun of others for.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
mykill at 8:00PM, Jan. 31, 2006
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Well, it's a matter of power. Christianity weilds real power, as does Islam.
Judaism is an exclusive religion and historically jewish people have been singled out for persecution. The Kurds make the Jews look powerful though - especially what remains of the Yzedi.

It's like, there is Black Pride, Latino Pride and even Gay Pride - and all those things are recognized as ‘good’ and ‘worthy’. But mention “White Pride” - and all of a sudden the association is evil hateful and bigoted.

White folk weild power, that's the difference -collectively we're de-facto privelidged. “White Pride” is just shoving the privelidge in people's faces - so the only people who do "white pride' regularly are hateful and bigoted.

It's been many centuries since any Christians have been tosssed to any lions. The way they like to complain about being oppressed though, maybe it's a practice worth reviving. So the Christians can be RIGHT for once.

Israel represents Jews weilding power and perhaps abusing it as well. That's why Euros complain maybe. But in America we have our own Jews.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
ozoneocean at 8:06PM, Feb. 1, 2006
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Look, let’s not get confused about simple personal racialist bigotry and the practices and policies of governments and popular culture. A lot of you are simply not recognising the difference. One leads to the other, but they are separate.

Officially it is a crime (or as good as) to level the same criticisms at the Jewish people as are frequently directed at any other human culture or ethnic group, in a literary context, in movies, in government policies, Laws or statements (even though those criticisms may be scurrilous and completely unmerited) . If you’re not imprisoned, you could be ostracised and universally shunned. And I’m talking world-wide here, not just about some whining, un-educated racialist minority elements in the USA. This level of ‘kid-glove’ treatment is a little extreme considering the Jewish people and culture in the 21stC are so robust, healthy, prosperous, successful and well able to stand up for themselves.

Now, on the level of individual racialist bigotry: that is a separate thing. People are free to be stupid arseholes in their personal lives, we can’t control the thoughts of the dumb sheep that the ‘masses’ often make themselves into. That kind of “anti-Semitism”, is only voiced by the very stupidest people in their dumbest moments of brainlessness. It’s part of a hangover from the centuries of unreasoning hatred by Christians of Jewish people; just carrying on in a dilute, but no less stupid form. Some of it is also an unthinking reaction against the official “hands–off” policy (only a very small part). Mindless people tend to not only repeat mindless things but they react in a rather cow-like, animal fashion.

And finally, the European attitude to the Jewish people in the modern day is exactly the same as the American attitude. You have the same criminal, stupid, evil, racialist, extremist elements in society who will always hate groups like Jews, Africans, Asians, or just people who can read… You know the types. These are a minority, no matter how vocal they may be.
And you also have official government policies and laws that prevent criticism of Jewish culture, ‘criticism’ in the same was as say you might be perfectly allowed to criticise Muslim culture. The only difference is the European countries tend to look at the situation in Israel in a more realistic light than Americans.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
marine at 3:09PM, Feb. 3, 2006
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I say fuck everyone equally. Tolerance is the best thing to preach.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
mykill at 9:23PM, Feb. 3, 2006
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I don't know that it's acceptable to make blanket statements about any regious faith or ethnic community. The Jews arn't special really, that's a function of basic decency. There is a lot of Euro guilt relating to the holocaust and Jews are politically powerful in the US, so anti semitism is particularly taboo in this hemisphere.

But in the Arab world, political correctness and anti semitism regularly find themselves in agreement - the enlightened minority of course distinguish between the state of Israel (bad and wrong) and Jewish ethnicity (diverse people, some quite noble).

Anti semitism has old roots (they killed Christ!), so the Euro taboo against anti-semitism - it's in place to cover up skeletons in the closet in my opinion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
ozoneocean at 11:57AM, Feb. 4, 2006
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Did you know that “Semitic” peoples also include Arabs?
Yes, it's another one of those silly words we use wrongly these days. :D

You’ve actually mostly summed up some of what I was saying Mykill, and you've said it a lot more succinctly than I did.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
spaz201 at 7:36PM, Feb. 5, 2006
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marine
I say fuck everyone equally. Tolerance is the best thing to preach.

I couldn't agree more. Tolerance is the best thing to preach, But its often hard to live by. I know, I try my best at it and often catch myself thinking pretty mean and racial things sometimes, Well When it comes to race, my friend and I always slag on one another, I say to hispanic joke he makes a white joke, so I guess I'm pretty bad about not sounding racist to those within ear shot but I'm not.

But when you hear someone make race or religious jokes, its often easier for people to go along with it than to do other wise and the vicious cycle continues on.

But be offend by every little thing does no good either.

Ah but I'm rambling now, Simply put the world isn't tolerant, its sad, but true. When someone makes a Jew joke most of the time they aren't trying to be intolerant or mean, they just don't think better of it. Which is way being tolerant is hard, you have to accepting things that are different from you and realize that what you think is funny isn't to others.

And I again missed the subject completely.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Dubba G at 5:06AM, Feb. 10, 2006
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Hehe. My mum gets pissed when I say ‘Pikey’ or ‘gay’ in a mean way. Whenever I call someone gay I don't meen homosexual, i mean annoying and stupid. The same with pikey, I say it too someone who picks pennys and food off the floor. Most people say jew like that, not trying to be horrible to jews, it's just taken on a different meaning.

I think that gay people should go with the name homosexual again.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
mykill at 7:10AM, Feb. 11, 2006
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“You just got gyped, jewed and ‘that’s so gay'” - none of those terms of phrase exist explicitly to bash people - their meant to call attention to something being unfair or esteemed as ‘lame’ or ‘girlie’.

BUT, everytime you use such language you communicate more than your intent. You are suggesting “I'm not Jewish” or “I'm not Gay” , or even “I'm no gypsy”. And you add to that proclamation, that the stereotype accociated is RIGHT. And, further, you suggest you have no friends who you know to be Jewish, Gay or gypsy and certainly don't want any either.

The REASON you say “that's so Gay” is BECAUSE it means ‘homosexual“. If it meant ”happy“, you would use ”gay“ to decribe powerful alcohol or drugs.

You’re confusing the negative association the word ‘GAY has as somehow having NOTHING to do with HOMOSEXUAL. If ”Gay“ wasn’t the word - the word would be something like ”fag“, or ”queer“ - with the SAME meaning and usage.

Your Dad is right. You are speaking prejudice. If you have close friends who are gay and closeted, they will likely NEVER tell YOU. Cool Jewish people will learn to avoid you and ask your friends why they hang out with a bigot.

By casually saying ”That's so Gay“, or ”don't JEW me“ - you are announcing to the world clearly and loudly :” I AM INTOLERANT AND TOO STUPID TO KNOW IT !“.

Okay, maybe you entered this world with the language being prejudiced already. The difference between a child and a MAN is one of taking responsibility. As long as you refuse to take responsibility for what comes out of your mouth and the effect it could have on others, you will remain a child and get no respect no matter your number of summers.

”Gypped“ can be more innocent than ”Jewed" if there is no gypsie prescence that's relevant anywhere close. The likelihood of hurting someone with your speech has to be considered.

Now, to show what a hypocrite I am, I'll describe something as being gay in both the literal (Brokeback Mountain) and negative (Elvis movie sountracks) sense. But I'm priveliedged, being gay - so I CAN.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
ozoneocean at 7:27AM, Feb. 11, 2006
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I completely agree with What Mykill said there.
Well almost all… The privilege equation thing is a bit iffy: If the usage is ok for some people, it'll probably catch on regardless.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
mykill at 10:04AM, Feb. 11, 2006
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Very technical but the word used by Blacks is “niggah” - the subtle difference between that pronunciation and the one used by racialists is all the diifference in the world.

That “niggah” is used prevelantly in black slang is essentially a punk rock type “fuck you” to white folk, who for reasons of history can never say the word for reasons of political correctness that hold water. As such, Black MEN, who take responsibility for what comes out of their mouth, how it lands and how it colors themself - don't use that language.

The “privelidge” of using the anti gay language being gay gives you operates on more than one level. First, like with Black men, it's a “fuck you” to the antigay establishment when said with a chip on the shoulder. Second, it can be an intentional attempt to reclaim a word by using it in its positive context. For example, the word “queer” has been an epithet - but it also has utility in being a label that unites Gay men and women, as well as transgendered communities and is used by some as a word to empower us all, and to generate a sense of community.

My BF, in response to people saying “that's so gay” - has taken on using “straight” in a similar way. If something is ugly or dumb - he says “That's so straight”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
mykill at 10:44AM, Feb. 11, 2006
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Well, Gay people who are closeted arn't being attacked for being gay - they are ‘passing’ for ‘straight’.

As a Gay man I'm clear that the oppression against gay people is primarily one of speech and understanding, not violence. Violence does happen to gay people, and guesss what? Actual violence perpetrated against gay people is usually by another gay person who is closeted and convinced that being homophobic will help him be accepted and who act out their frustration on those that are openly gay.

The Holocaust happened to Jewish people that before the holocaust, were the victims of prejudice, but not actual widespread violence.

The problem is prejudice that enables violence, not just the violence.

According to my Black boyfriend, ‘Niggah’ can mean friends (usually only fellow black male friends tho), ‘Nigger’ means you hate black people in a racialist way. Those white “wiggers” using the term ‘nigger’ are doing so out of ignorance and it's going to be VERY dangerous for them to visit any popular hip hop show.

Ambitious “wiggers” could attempt to appropriate “Niggah” with the correct pronunciation - but it's a risky move. Generally only white boys raised in the Ghetto with many black friends can get away with it blamelessly. Even then, I don't see Eminem doing it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
mykill at 10:52AM, Feb. 11, 2006
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Beating someone because they are muslim is bigoted. Shooting them dead in their own country tho - that's patriotic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
FNLugan at 6:23PM, Feb. 12, 2006
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Ah……Jew bashing. There's much to discuss.

There's so much Jew-bashing going on on a daily basis…but its the same as everything else… *shrug* Its just you hear about it when someone makes fun of a Christian, cuz they'll get pissy about it.

And if you wanna hear PISSY, there's a good handful (okay, maybe two handfulls) of Muslims out there that will totally go bananas over a cartoon of Muhammed…

lets just say everyone's gonna get pissy at some point- and those are the people that force me to perpetuate the religious funnies……

But its okay, I <3 everyone.

That's right. Even you. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
Thevampire_kain01 at 7:43AM, Feb. 13, 2006
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~shakes head in dissbalife~ (sorry for typos) come on!!!!!!!!! im mean……….COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it doesn't matter if your white black, brown, yellow cristian, jewish, astrailian, any other race or color……I hate any body that P!55es me off. I 'm not raceist, i just hate every body because the ppl that hate me ARE raceist and thats the ones who should be “Bashed, Snuffed, Iced,Wacked” there the ones who brought this plag against us……. But if you hate Joos then you hate jews. ( screw you guys, im going home. no me here you nere no no no you nere me here.) If any body likes Italians please call me Im a white Itailan Teenager, and I can build a M61A1 .20 mm multi- turreted machine gun. :-D all i need is the bullets and the motor.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:29PM
ozoneocean at 8:22AM, Feb. 13, 2006
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Oh ho ho… The original subject has only really been addressed by ME and a couple of others here, the rest have taken a rather irrelevant position and made the whole thing pointless :P

But then only I can be me. :-D

Kain, you don't mean “turreted” you mean “barrelled”. A turret is the gun housing. And it's not .20mm either: it's just 20mm without the dot. If the gun was only .20mm (i.e. 0.2mm) it would be tiny. These weapons are commonly just called “Vulcan cannons” usually, and they’re often miss-called “mini-guns” by the current crop of stupid young gamers (mini-guns are the smaller version of the Vulcan cannon, hence the name).
Lastly, Vulcan cannons tend to be called “cannons”, not machineguns. That’s just what guns that size are usually called.

Ok then. Don’t use “Jew” in a derogatory way people. You’re just perpetuating the evil, keeping it alive. That’s not smart.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Thevampire_kain01 at 4:35AM, Feb. 15, 2006
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OK maby I watch “Sout Park” and I like Cartman, but I can say the word “Jew” because Im 25% jewish. (from me dads side) That Idiota! sorry my dad left my mom when she got pregnate. he hasn't payed child sapport either (sorry for typos)
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:29PM
Chameloncholic at 4:48AM, Feb. 15, 2006
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Writing (Sorry for typos) in every post doesn't take away your responsibility to actually try and make your writing readable. If you are honestly sorry about your typos, try taking more than five seconds over your posts.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
Thevampire_kain01 at 7:33AM, Feb. 15, 2006
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AHHHH! RESPECT MY ATHORITA! I do that because I want to ignolage my mistakes if i made any. that is why is put “(sorry for typos)” thing! you homosapian bashing B#$@! ! :evil:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:29PM
Chameloncholic at 9:03AM, Feb. 15, 2006
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Thevampire_kain01
AHHHH! RESPECT MY ATHORITA! I do that because I want to acknowlage my mistakes if I made any. That is why is put “(sorry for typos)” thing! You homosapien bashing bastard! :evil:

Then you won't mind if I do the same then.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
Mazoo at 4:19PM, Feb. 15, 2006
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Uhm… ok, after that outburst… I'm going to return this topic to… the topic at hand.

I think part of the reason it's such a “crime” to “bash” Jews is because they have a long history of being unfairly blamed. Throughout the rise of communism in the early 20th Century many of those leaders blamed Jews because they were easy targets. They were a minority and it was a way to pass the blame from their shoulders and not jeopardize their power. Stalin, Mussolini and especially Hitler did this so they had an easier chance for getting more power. Gypsies also get the short end of the stick; they're a minority wherever they go.

Also, Jews are a minority compared to the huge worldwide religions of Christianity and so on. Now, that doesn't really give them “pitying” rights, because there are so many other religions and beliefs that are minorities as well. So why Jews? Because people are stupid and probably keep the unintentional (or maybe they are intentional) traditions of their family (but that really only applies to people with European backgrounds). I'm guessing people are just irrational.

It's the same as Americans blaming illegal immigrants for the poor economy or Christian zealots blaming homosexuals for the war in Iraq. People need to push their insecurities onto to others.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:56PM
Thevampire_kain01 at 4:10AM, Feb. 16, 2006
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Look, I'm a jew, so I can do that. And second that B word, wasn't “bastard” it was a cuss word. So ha! Are you a Jewish person? We need to stop talking about anything except about the topic here. I still think that it is wrong to “Bash Jews”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:29PM
Juliechan at 12:19AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Uuh…Because of Hitler and the Holocaust…?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:11PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:40PM, Dec. 16, 2006
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Wow, another thread not in flames. I'm very impressed with the composure.

Most of the time, I think topics like this flame out because they cannot differentiate between people of the Jewish faith, and Zionism. There was a quote from the movie Munich that basically went “The only blood that matters is Jewish blood”. In short, it was alright to kill innocent civilians because they weren't Jewish.

So you have people of the Jewish faith, and you have the idea that only people of the Jewish faith matter. This is what people mean when they refer to Zionism. Zionism is a form of Jingosim (believing one state superior to another) mixed in with believing one religion superior to another. It is the same as Islamists who want a Muslim Caliphate in the Middle East. I believe until both are dealt with, you will never have real peace in the Middle East.

The Holocaust was horrible, and should never happen again, though the mindset that made it happen happens over and over worldwide, on a pretty regular basis. Darfur happens right now, is clearly defined as genocide, and the world stands by, shuffling its feet.

So bashing Jews is wrong, because that's a people. Attacking the precepts of Zionism is legitimate debate because its a political philosophy – one that believes only people of the Jewish faith are “real” people.



last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
marine at 10:32PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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they killed jesus, thats gives them christ immunity
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Ronson at 7:05AM, Dec. 18, 2006
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If by “bashing” we mean critisizing, then it isn't a crime. It may be socially condemned, but you won't get locked up for it. Not in this country at least.

If by “bashing” we mean something more physical, well, that's a crime regardless of religion or ethnicity.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM

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