Debate and Discussion

Why John McCain is going to in 49 states in November
Vindibudd at 12:34AM, May 28, 2008
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ozoneocean
HA! That “elitism” tag is hilarious. I think it's a codeword for “Ni**er”. Seriously.
I'd hardly describe Obama as elitist. And it's fricken hilarious in light of his blue blood competitors. Hillary IS elite in every sense of the word, and Bush and McCain are as elite as you can get! Jebus.

Just because a person will swear, mumble, or behave like an inveterate moron occasionally, it doesn't mean they would EVER actually deign to “have a beer” with some lowly dick they don't know from Homer Simpson. The circles those people move in (exclusively), their backgrounds and upbringing mark them out as what they are: elites.

What's Obama? A stylish guy who's intelligent, doesn't mumble, or rant. And who is really quite bland. And these factors mark him out as elite? As opposed to the others?


You know, just because someone does not mumble does not mean that they are intelligent. For example, this past Memorial Day, Obama was talking about how we are honoring our fallen heroes, “and I see some are in the audience today.”

You would expect that a presidential candidate would know the difference between Memorial Day and Veterans Day. Oh what the hell, at least he doesn't mumble.

Oh and yes he is elitist. He is elitist because he simply feels that he is better than the people he intends to be the president of. He has absolutely no qualifications for being the President of the United States, yet here he is running for the position. That is about as elitist as you can get. And another thing, Obama, like Hillary, like McCain, doesn't want to serve the people, he wants to rule the people. There is a significant difference.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
ozoneocean at 1:06AM, May 28, 2008
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Oh yes… can't let those “elitist” folks think they're better than us, can we? Maybe put signs up on the schools, churches and bars that say “no elitists allowed”. Any that Do come in should be lynched. make them sit at the back of the bus. ;)

lol! Tell me why GWB Jnr and all the rest aren't exactly the same as him? And elite about 10 million times more. Rev up those creative writing skills, because it should be quite an entertaining piece of fiction. :)

“Elitist”? Ha! At least they've got a good sense of rhythm.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Vindibudd at 2:19AM, May 28, 2008
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ozoneocean
Oh yes… can't let those “elitist” folks think they're better than us, can we? Maybe put signs up on the schools, churches and bars that say “no elitists allowed”. Any that Do come in should be lynched. make them sit at the back of the bus. ;)

lol! Tell me why GWB Jnr and all the rest aren't exactly the same as him? And elite about 10 million times more. Rev up those creative writing skills, because it should be quite an entertaining piece of fiction. :)

“Elitist”? Ha! At least they've got a good sense of rhythm.

I reject your hijacking of the term elitist to fit your definition of racial prejudice. Again, saying GWB is elitist does not disprove the charge that Obama is elitist. This is not a conversation about Bush. You may have noticed, he isn't running.

This is a typical leftist tactic, instead of trying to defend their candidate, they would rather pull someone else's ideal person down to their standards. According to socialism, there is no such thing as an exceptional individual, everyone is the exact same miserable thing.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
ozoneocean at 2:34AM, May 28, 2008
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The exact same GOOD thing ;)

But the “elitist” charge is important, and it's the main one leveled against Barak Obama, so it's quite valid to show just how empty and bizarre it is. Comparing the very genuine elitism of those other prominent politicians in order to do this is therefore quite valid indeed. :)

Someone in another forum here at DD posted this very entertaining and informative youtube video that does a lot to explore this strange attitude toward Barak Obama and the badly disguised racialism that is at the heart of it.



Those are people who identify themselves as DEMOCRAT supporters, so in this case it's even more telling. And sad.

__________________________________

Just the clarify, I'll reiterate:
Not liking him (Obama) is fine. Not liking any politician is: that's a natural reaction.
But justifying it in such an unusual and false way (the charge of elitism) means they're coving up for their real feelings (their racialism).
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Vindibudd at 8:43AM, May 28, 2008
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ozoneocean
Just the clarify, I'll reiterate:
Not liking him (Obama) is fine. Not liking any politician is: that's a natural reaction.
But justifying it in such an unusual and false way (the charge of elitism) means they're coving up for their real feelings (their racialism).

I don't think that I have a reaction to a politician. I have an opinion on him or her as a candidate that I would vote for based upon their platform and record. Obama has not given me a single reason to vote for him, and to the contrary, has done pretty much the opposite.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
bravo1102 at 11:16AM, May 28, 2008
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Let's define elitist: someone who sees themselves as among the most accomplished.

This would infer they think they are better than others and are “above” their peers in ability, education etc.

A ready example: because of their intensive training and espirit de corpsa Marine sees himself as an elite compared to a regular soldier or sailor. So he tends to act a little bigger and bolder than a normal soldier type and see himself as standing taller than that soldier.

Now this behavior often will often alienate those who see themselves as peers and resent that the elite should somehow feel themselves entitled to lord it over everyone else.

Nowhere in this defintion do I see any indication of racism, unless the person sees that Obama has no right to feel better than anyone else because he's black. As opposed to being a graduate of Columbia and an accomplished “intellectual” or what-have-you.

Only one woman clearly indicated this in the video. The others merely repeated the “no experience” “I don't know what he stands for” that has been trumpeted on talk radio and probably Hillary's advertising.

I love Brenda and she comes across very well. I wish I had more confidence in Obama, but due to his lack of experience I can't bring myself to vote for him. One commentator pointed out that he could get run over by strong, experienced advisors and politicians on the Hill and nothing would change.

McCain has proven himself capable of compromise. It is politics in Washington. We need pragmatists who are willing to give and take and might get a bit of their agenda across. It also helps if they can express their opinions well and McCain can do it a trifle better than Obama and much better than George W. Bush.

But McCain still won't win 49 states. He's no Ronald Reagan (I didn't vote for him, I was an avowed Liberal Democrat at the time and against everything Conservatism stood for after having read The New Right: We're Ready to Lead)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
SpANG at 2:50PM, May 28, 2008
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bravo1102
Who were also insulted by John Kerry as not being able to get anywhere due to ignorance which is why they joined the military?

“Halp us Jon Carry, we R stuck hear in Irak”
By the way, this is a smear.
Kerry
You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.
It was a flubbed line, of course, but the conservative pundits went after it. He meant to say “If you don't, you get US stuck in Iraq”, eluding to the stupidity of the current president. Really, why the hell would he intentionally call military stupid? That would be political suicide. By the way HE SERVED too. I guess he was calling himself stupid? The whole argument is idiotic. I certainly don't think you believe it. You just spin it, because if you say it enough, the public believes it.

bravo1102
Let's define elitist: someone who sees themselves as among the most accomplished.

This would infer they think they are better than others and are “above” their peers in ability, education etc.
Interesting…
bravo1102
Though having served gives a whole new perspective of the tragedy of what's going on that non-veterans don't readily see.
Sounds like you are being elitist then! See? I can spin your words right back at you, too.

But what does that really get us? I wish that these arguments didn't come down to stupid little “sound bytes” that are spun the way the pundits want you to hear them. I hope some day, the public gets a clue and starts making INFORMED opinions, not just ones made FOR THEM from rhetoric.

If anyone in this race is not elitist, it's Obama. Not only is he the least wealthy of the three, he thinks we're too smart to fool for the same old spin over and over again. He wants to discuss the ISSUES, not the fact that he doesn't wear some stupid flag pin (which neither Clinton OR McCain wear either, by the way). But he can't, because he constantly has to spend his time deflecting this crap. And the others are fine with the old-school slinging of mud. He's the ONLY candidate that has openly said he wants a serious discussion on the issues plaguing this nation. I know, right? He wants to treat us like (gasp) GROWN-UPS.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
bobhhh at 11:06PM, May 28, 2008
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bravo1102
Let's define elitist: someone who sees themselves as among the most accomplished.

This would infer they think they are better than others and are “above” their peers in ability, education etc.

A ready example: because of their intensive training and espirit de corpsa Marine sees himself as an elite compared to a regular soldier or sailor. So he tends to act a little bigger and bolder than a normal soldier type and see himself as standing taller than that soldier.

Now this behavior often will often alienate those who see themselves as peers and resent that the elite should somehow feel themselves entitled to lord it over everyone else.

Nowhere in this defintion do I see any indication of racism, unless the person sees that Obama has no right to feel better than anyone else because he's black. As opposed to being a graduate of Columbia and an accomplished “intellectual” or what-have-you.

Only one woman clearly indicated this in the video. The others merely repeated the “no experience” “I don't know what he stands for” that has been trumpeted on talk radio and probably Hillary's advertising.

I love Brenda and she comes across very well. I wish I had more confidence in Obama, but due to his lack of experience I can't bring myself to vote for him. One commentator pointed out that he could get run over by strong, experienced advisors and politicians on the Hill and nothing would change.

McCain has proven himself capable of compromise. It is politics in Washington. We need pragmatists who are willing to give and take and might get a bit of their agenda across. It also helps if they can express their opinions well and McCain can do it a trifle better than Obama and much better than George W. Bush.

But McCain still won't win 49 states. He's no Ronald Reagan (I didn't vote for him, I was an avowed Liberal Democrat at the time and against everything Conservatism stood for after having read The New Right: We're Ready to Lead)

let's not dance aound the implied meaning of elitist used to tarnish Obama. Here the implication is that Obama looks down on people and either cannot sympathize with their condition or truly could care less and is just sucking up to them to win votes.

My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
ozoneocean at 5:30AM, May 29, 2008
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bravo1102
Nowhere in this defintion do I see any indication of racism
Racism strictly, is the belief in the concept of “Race”. That concept is elitist in essence lol!

Racialism is the prejudicial application of that belief. And that's exactly what I think those people are doing with the term “Elitist”: it has NOTHING to do with the definition of the word “Elitist”. I thought that was clearly stated several times in all my posts on the subject, it's simply being used as an excuse to disparage him. Most of the people who DO use it in this way are clearly put off by the fact that he's an African American.

The history of using these sorts of methods of covert discrimination is long and boring. I don't see why something so obvious is so hard to see or understand, especially by someone clearly as bright and knowledgeable as you.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Hawk at 9:42AM, May 29, 2008
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Weird… I've never before heard the term “racialism”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bravo1102 at 10:19AM, May 29, 2008
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ozoneocean
bravo1102
Nowhere in this defintion do I see any indication of racism
Racism strictly, is the belief in the concept of “Race”. That concept is elitist in essence lol!

Racialism is the prejudicial application of that belief. And that's exactly what I think those people are doing with the term “Elitist”: it has NOTHING to do with the definition of the word “Elitist”. I thought that was clearly stated several times in all my posts on the subject, it's simply being used as an excuse to disparage him. Most of the people who DO use it in this way are clearly put off by the fact that he's an African American.

The history of using these sorts of methods of covert discrimination is long and boring. I don't see why something so obvious is so hard to see or understand, especially by someone clearly as bright and knowledgeable as you.

According to Fowler's Modern English Usage though racialism entered the language some 30 years before racism, there is no difference in the meaning between the two words. Fowler's Modern Enlish Usage is the acknowledged authority on English usage. :)

I was merely defining the term and saying how it may be perceived by run of the mill Americans, who are acknowledged to be a bit anti-intellectual.

bravo1102
Nowhere in this defintion do I see any indication of raci{al}ism, unless the person sees that Obama has no right to feel better than anyone else because he's black.As opposed to being a graduate of Columbia and an accomplished “intellectual” or what-have-you.
(emphasis added)

I had thought that statement would be an acknowledgement of agreement with your points about covert (socially invisible and implied by tradition) racism. It was an error of ommission on my part to not specify that skin color could cause a reaction subconsciously The people don't have to admit they're racist, only one woman does. But Brenda uses the term “redneck” and notes her experience on the city council which implies incipient racism, not conscious racism. This refers to the American subconscious is the concept of the “uppity ni**er” (Culled from recent works defining Reconstruction and the racial overtones and baggage left in the American psyche)

Elitistis not only camouflage for racism, but the two are combined since Americans have a prounounced tendency to be anti-intellcual.

As a teacher in a school district where mine was the only white face in the classroom; been there, done that. :( I had to bend over backwards to overcome my subconscious social conceptions of blacks as opposed to the reality that skin color doesn't matter and that people should be judged by the content of their character. Before teaching I felt an obligation to do lots a research on the Black African experience in America. In many ways I feel that Black Liberation Theology is justified in its beliefs. 300 years of oppression, 30 years of true freedom? And that was a very hard battle to win.

That brings us into my agreement with spAng's comment:

spAng
But what does that really get us? I wish that these arguments didn't come down to stupid little “sound bytes” that are spun the way the pundits want you to hear them. I hope some day, the public gets a clue and starts making INFORMED opinions, not just ones made FOR THEM from rhetoric.

So do I. I repeat the sound bytes to show where many people come from and their reactions. Not mine. The last American President that Obama most resembles in my opinion is Jimmy Carter. I lived through Jimmy Carter's presidentcy, but I still would not vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980. Since I don't want to chance a repeat of the Carter years (or the Truman years as much as I respect Truman) I can't vote for Obama, but McCain despite his recent posturing is not Ronald Reagan. Because of that McCain will not win 49 states (or 48 because NJ and RI or CT will not go for McCain)

The US Presidentcy is not one job where I want the employee to undergo One the Job Training. Look at G.W. Bush. His advisors (esp SecDef) rode roughshod over him and convinced him that their intell and plans for invasion were right. He didn't figure out how to lead until nearly 3 years into his presidentcy. (if not later)


spAng
Sounds like you are being elitist then! See? I can spin your words right back at you, too.

Guilty. I was an Army tanker. We saw ourselves as an elite. It is that espirit de corps thing that builds morale. Armor rules! If you ain't Armor you ain't s**t.

Can we bury the hatchet now? (and not in my head, though it wouldn't hurt it is made of 30 pounds of solid rubber, tanker's nickname treadhead because we're thick
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM

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