Debate and Discussion

Wikileaks
ozoneocean at 7:56AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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Man, why hasn't someone already brought this up before?

So what do you think about the persecution the site and Julian Asange are getting?
I have to say, in the early days of the Wikileaks stuff I thought the whole thing was a little irresponsible and I was in the camp that felt quite a bit of the info could prove pretty dangerous to people around the world…

But I've since come to see that as mostly pure bullshit. From what I've seen of the info time and again they really do try and be responsible, not releasing dangerous info in individuals and taking care to obscure vulnerable people's names in almost all cases as well as attempting to consult with the agencies they're going to be releasing the leaks about.

At most, the main “damage” they do is to diplomatically embarrass countries for hiding stupid things and catching them out in obvious lies. In fact in almost all cases the only people to whom the info is NEW are the general public (the uninformed and those who would rather watch Fox news than something like Al Jazera)- all the intelligence services around the world and probably even your average taliban on the street are already aware of most of the stuff already.
It seems that mostly the wikileaks revelations just undermine the public relations propaganda our governments like to feed us.

And yet the persecution they're facing is amazing! The US government putting pressure of private companies to damage the site as well as conducting attacks on it. Elected officials calling Assage a terrorist and calling for his assassination…?

The man is like Salman Rushdie, except in his case he's actually done something worthwhile to earn a price on his head.
Freedom of speech doesn't exist in his case.


Of course I'm open to dissenting views here :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 9:18AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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I pretty much agree. Have recently discovered that I'm something of an anarchist at heart and stuff like that really reinforces such belief.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
blindsk at 9:56AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
So what do you think about the persecution the site and Julian Asange are getting?
I have to say, in the early days of the Wikileaks stuff I thought the whole thing was a little irresponsible and I was in the camp that felt quite a bit of the info could prove pretty dangerous to people around the world…

This is interesting, because it's been quite the opposite for me. Originally I viewed this as a necessary jab at the US government for whatever they call their campaign and accomplishments over in the Middle East. I never felt like it would harm any particular individual directly, just embarrass them and stain their reputation. Reading through most of the stuff, that's pretty much what it is - it felt like a group of friends discussing the flaws of other acquaintances behind their backs. I found it all amusing.

And then his analogy for conspiracies to that of a computational process was pure brilliance to me. The inputs served as the information, the computational network would be the web of conspirators, and the outputs are the lasting effects that maintain the environment. Add in the various programmer aphorisms, represented by the media (I'll just let you read the whole thing), and you have your whole computer science class summed up by your local government.

But then I read a little bit further into his statements and began to notice some of his subtle motivations (well, maybe not so subtle). The most popular quote about them seems to be this:

The more secretive or unjust an organization is, the more leaks induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. This must result in minimization of efficient internal communications mechanisms (an increase in cognitive “secrecy tax”) and consequent system-wide cognitive decline resulting in decreased ability to hold onto power as the environment demands adaption. Hence in a world where leaking is easy, secretive or unjust systems are nonlinearly hit relative to open, just systems. Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, mass leaking leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance.

Originally I thought his purpose was intended to be a slap on the wrist for the government. Make them say something like, “Alright Julian, fair enough. You got us good, guess we'll have to be a little more forthright because we can't fool you guys!” I don't think anyone should be surprised that government functions always have secrets behind closed doors. Everyone is aware of it in one way or another, we're just not sure on the information veiled behind the curtain (which is why I'm in favor of small government, to limit the extent they can draw power from these hidden secrets). So Mr. Assange just intended to expose all of that stuff, right? Well, when I look at that aforementioned quote, it spells something a little different.

I'm not a fan of anarchy, I'm not that extreme. And while one may argue that Julian may or may not be one as well, that's not the point. Like people have said, he's just a messenger. But there are so many things he's done that points to him wanting to pass off that baton to those drawn to anarchy. He even has threatened to release everything (so apparently there's even more condemning evidence!) should his charges follow through. It seems like he's saying, “Eh, eh? What do you think, anarchists? See what I've done here? Think you might want to run with it or something?” I work with a few people that consider themselves anarchists. They were generally jubilant about this news when it first came out. I don't agree with it, because that's not my persuasion.

In summary, I can appreciate the work he's done, I just don't agree with his stance on the whole situation.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Genejoke at 10:26AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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The sexual assault charges that have popped up are somewhat unconvincing.

Someone
I'm not a fan of anarchy, I'm not that extreme.

That amused me, I don't consider all anarchists extreme. Much like not all muslims are terrorists.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
DAJB at 10:27AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
I have to say, in the early days of the Wikileaks stuff I thought the whole thing was a little irresponsible and I was in the camp that felt quite a bit of the info could prove pretty dangerous to people around the world…
I agree. Except, even after all the persecution of Assange, I still feel a little like that now.

Publishing info that tells Iran its neighbours wanted the US to attack it was irresponsible. Some of the lesser stuff is trivial, obviously, but even in those cases, we all say things behind people's backs (well, I don't obviously! *cough!*) and these revelations could do a lot of damage to relations between the countries concerned. It's all very well to say everyone should know everything but, at a time when parts of the world are just looking for excuses to go to war with each other, publishing this kind of stuff is insane.

There are a lot of things that the public would like to know, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily in the public interest for them to be published. If Iran had suddenly bombed Saudi Arabia because of these leaks, would you still be so relaxed about the disclosure then?

ozoneocean
the persecution they're facing is amazing! The US government putting pressure of private companies to damage the site as well as conducting attacks on it. Elected officials calling Assage a terrorist and calling for his assassination…?
Again, I agree. Whilst I believe some of the revelations were irresponsible and I hope there is some kind of legitimate legal charge that can be brought against Assange (and the US official who leaked the docs), the current “personal vendetta” style of witch-hunt is doing nothing to address the real issue.

If anything, this ludicrous persecution is making a hero and a martyr out of someone who has done something incredibly stupid and it's damaging the reputation of the US even further (and who'd have thought that was possible?!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
Genejoke at 10:41AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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Those last points hit it pretty well, I'm on the fence in a lot of ways but the way the governments have gone after him is overkill and obviously unjustified.

Was wikileaks right or wrong in the first place? both, the problem with exposing things is you don't always know the full effect of what you expose. Wouldn't they be hypocrites if they funnelled the truth? I have aquaintences who like Blindsks are really enjoying the whole thing and all the riots going on, for me it isn't something to be enjoyed although it does make me think that change is needed now more than ever. The how is the tricky part.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Hawk at 11:37AM, Dec. 14, 2010
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I'm like blindsk… I'm not an anarchist, and I don't believe in anarchy. And I don't see anything heroic in what wikileaks is doing. It seems like a good idea to have an outlet for information that no government can control in case something really important needs to come out. But this information doesn't seem to be helping anybody. It's more like a person who is privy to some especially juicy gossip and they're lording it over everyone, divulging it to people for the sheer glee of being “the one with the information”, and not really caring about the consequences. We know these kinds of people in high school, college, and the workplace. Wikileaks is the exact same thing.

I work for a large company, and I get to know a lot of secrets far in advance. It would totally be fun to be the guy that spills beans, but I know it would be harmful to both the company I work for and my own job. Secrets have to exist.

Many people believe that we each deserve to have our own personal secrets. So why does that change when these secrets are shared among a group of people or organization? We like to assume that the secrets being kept from us are done so to harm us or keep us under control or submissive. That isn't always the case.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
imshard at 2:01PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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I like the WikiLeaks concept. Whistle-blowers are vital. Its one of he few ways we can keep our very irresponsible “leaders” accountable. The need for this is clear, things are being suppressed and big brother is on the move. The unilateral responses against WikiLeaks are just too convenient and well timed.

I don't like Assange and his actions though. His aim is not so much to achieve transparency as to damage credibility, and hinder international mobility. He is an anarchist and he chose the US government as a target. The focus of his releases make this apparent. He'd gain a lot of credibility to me if he also released information received on major players like Russia, India, China, or any of the EU members.

I believe in a well ordered system to maintain peace and ensure prosperity. I also believe this is only possible with a free and open government. All the embarrassing details could easily have been averted if the perpetrators hadn't been behaving shamefully in the first place.

People have a right to know what their leaders are doing, and closed doors are being used for too much and too many things that shouldn't need it.

P.S.
After getting fed up with Assange, Many former wikileaks staffers started rival site OpenLeaks to provide a less biased more global spanning site. Led by former wikileaks second in command Daniel Domscheit-Berg.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
ozoneocean at 7:09PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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DAJB
Publishing info that tells Iran its neighbours wanted the US to attack it
This is an excellent example of the class of stuff that seems like an awesome revelation, but only if you haven't been closely interested in the news from that region.

Basically all that stuff about the Saudis wanting to attack Iran or them wanting the US to do it wasn't a secret. That was open knowledge years ago. It's only “news” in terms of the superficial 24 hour news cycle style stuff that CNN, the BBC, Fox etc get into these days because being in Wikileaks has given it the glamour and notoriety those services thrive on.

A good example of that 24 hour news thing is the stuff all about the new fast railgun the US navy is developing … That's in quite a few stories as if it's all a big news event, when in reality if you've been following that stuff then you've known about it for years and you'll also know they're not much closer to a deployable prototype than they were back then! News of that sort is a type of entertainment and thrives on novelty

As with many of the “revelations”.
I knew about that. Be 100% assured that Iran knew and so did every other country concerned as well, and most likely the average Iranian, Kuwaiti, Saudi Quatari and Jordanian on the street. ;)

————–
More and more it seems to me that the main issue is diplomatic inconvenience and a propaganda PR disaster. In this age image is everything and wikileaks is undermining the careful image that the US has built up… Is this why they going after him harder than they've ever done for any South American druglord?

And wikileaks is definitely NOT antiUS, that's a stupid notion. They just happen to have a great big pile of leaks from there. They'll publish them from anywhere.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
bravo1102 at 7:26PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
And wikileaks is definitely NOT antiUS, that's a stupid notion. They just happen to have a great big pile of leaks from there. They'll publish them from anywhere.

Even a paranoid has enemies. To we thin skinned idealistic Americans it seems that Wikileaks is a gun aimed at our head, aimed to embarrass US (feel free to laugh at the pun we Americans deserve it ;)

No one in the US outside of John Batchelor was paying attention to any of the things Wikileaks pointed out before it was out in the open. We Americans had our head in the sand paying attention only to cultural trivia.

It has shown us up for the twits we were back when the Pentagon Papers were released all over again or when the Imperial Russian archives were thrown open by the Bolsheviks.

Diplomats say nasty things that are all too true and all too shocking for we ignorant savages on the outside who live in an idealistic fairyland. Or at least it seems that way from the way everyone is reacting.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
DAJB at 10:56PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
As with many of the “revelations”.
I knew about that. Be 100% assured that Iran knew
Sure, but there's a difference between “knowing” and having it publicly acknowledged and proven. Governments don't feel obliged to act on or respond to the former, they very often do with the latter. However you dress it up, publishing information of that nature was stupid and reckless.

ozoneocean
and so most likely the average Iranian, Kuwaiti, Saudi Quatari and Jordanian on the street.
That I very much doubt. For all their secrecy and shady dealings, our Western governments are shining examples of openness and transparency compared to those countries!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
ozoneocean at 11:27PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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DAJB
Sure, but there's a difference between “knowing” and having it publicly acknowledged and proven. Governments don't feel obliged to act on or respond to the former, they very often do with the latter. However you dress it up, publishing information of that nature was stupid and reckless.

ozoneocean
and so most likely the average Iranian, Kuwaiti, Saudi Quatari and Jordanian on the street.
That I very much doubt. For all their secrecy and shady dealings, our Western governments are shining examples of openness and transparency compared to those countries!
No, I mean actually knowing because the info was out there and acknowledged.

You're not getting this- it's ONLY made to look like a big story because the leak site is hot in the popular news services. It is not new information.

- I recall that coming to light just after the first invasion of Iraq. What we gave here is a case of the 24 news cycle mining the latest spectacle to death and distorting reality yet again. But don't worry, next week it'll all be forgotten and we'll be worrying about celeb vaginas again. ;)

Bravo is closer to the nub.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
DAJB at 11:42PM, Dec. 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
You're not getting this-
I'm getting it. I just don't agree with your conclusions.

It happens!
;-)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
ozoneocean at 12:03AM, Dec. 15, 2010
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DAJB
ozoneocean
You're not getting this-
I'm getting it. I just don't agree with your conclusions.

It happens!
;-)
No… you're saying that particular “leak” was irresponsible because of what it revealed.
What you don't get is that it wasn't actually a revelation, popular news wants you to believe it was because that makes a great story. :)

The comment about western nations being a becon etc in that context is pretty naive- don't you imagine that the average Persian and Arab citizens are aware of the political climate of the surrounding countries? Of course they are! Far better than you or I! To suggest otherwise is laughable.

It's not a matter of openness, its a matter of needing to know if war is around the corner or not. They're not idiots.
For example, the average Aussie is far more aware of the political situation in Papua New Guinea, Tuvalu, Fiji, and Indonesia than the average Brit or American, because they're in our region and what happens there can affect us.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
DAJB at 12:45AM, Dec. 15, 2010
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ozoneocean
DAJB
ozoneocean
You're not getting this-
I'm getting it. I just don't agree with your conclusions.

It happens!
;-)
No…
Well, I think we've reached the point now (as you and I so often do!) where we'll just have to agree to differ. Otherwise, we'll be simply going in circles, just repeating the same arguments forever. (And that can get very tedious for everyone else on the forum!)

I'm out.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
Genejoke at 2:49AM, Dec. 15, 2010
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Someone
For example, the average Aussie is far more aware of the political situation in Papua New Guinea, Tuvalu, Fiji, and Indonesia than the average Brit or American, because they're in our region and what happens there can affect us.

They have politics? Damn I never knew that I thought they were some kind of tribal people. :)

More seriously though I think ozones point is that it may be news to joe average but to the people who are likely to act on it it is old news.
IS the whole leaks thing irresponsible? maybe, I don't doubt that all governments have some seriously shady stuff going on, that cannot be a big revelation to anyone anywhere. So where does that leave us? Do we seek to expose these things or just accept whatever governments do and let them get on with it?

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
El Cid at 4:19AM, Dec. 15, 2010
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Politics is a dirty business. It's like what goes into making a sausage. No matter how tasty the sausage is, you probably don't want to know everything that went into it. That's as true in any other part of the world as it is in the United States. So I honestly don't see what the big deal is here; it's not like other countries don't also have not-so-public information they'd prefer not to reveal. It's like the US is that boy in school who got caught touching himself in the restroom and now for the rest of the year he's getting teased by the other boys, even though they all know he didn't do anything they're not doing themselves.

I've never been to Wikileaks. I don't even know what the site looks like, so I can only base my opinion on what I've heard and read about it. From what I gather, I don't see that the site is any kind of national security risk; they're just being very irresponsible. The site has become the darling of America haters the world over because it embarrasses American officials, but aside from that I don't see that it's benefited anyone or anything other than the owner's bank account.

And no, I don't see it as Information That The Public Has A Right To Know. Every aspect of policymaking does not need to be subject to public scrutiny. It doesn't even sound like a good idea in theory, but in practice it's even worse. Your average joe on the street will neither put in the effort to seek out and research this information nor develop the competence to adequately consider its full ramifications, so much of the interpreting and divulging ends up being done by opinion-makers and interest groups. So while in theory increased transparency is a transfer of knowledge (and therefore power) to the public at large, in reality it's a transfer of power to entrenched minority interests and loud fanatics. Much of the endemic dysfunction we bemoan in modern politics is the direct result of this strange obsession we've developed with making our governments more “open” and “responsive.” Obviously, that's not to say I don't believe some degree of accountability and disclosure is to be expected of public officials, but I do believe you can have too much of a good thing.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 9:16AM, Dec. 15, 2010
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DAJB
Well, I think we've reached the point now I'm out.
Really, I don't even see what your point is anymore? Your “conclusion” was based on a fallacy… It was your main point so now you've got nothing to add?
El Cid
I've never been to Wikileaks. I don't even know what the site looks like, so I can only base my opinion on what I've heard and read about it.
Why not take a look? That's what the thread is about :)

Here it is: http://213.251.145.96/

Here's a random “leak” of some info about trade dealings in Montevideo: http://213.251.145.96/cable/2007/03/07MONTEVIDEO287.html
Read through that and see how NON-embarrassing that is. It paints to US in a very, very positive light.

Nothing about wikileaks is benefiting ANY of the creators “bank accounts”, quite the opposite in fact. There IS no way to make money off of it for them. There's no advertising. No paid service. People can't even donate money to them, the US government has put pressure on companies to shut that down. This is the most classic attempt to strangle free speech that has ever occurred.

The people making money from this are the media companies who're mining the site as a 100% free source. ^_^
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
El Cid at 12:27PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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ozoneocean
Nothing about wikileaks is benefiting ANY of the creators “bank accounts”, quite the opposite in fact. There IS no way to make money off of it for them. There's no advertising. No paid service. People can't even donate money to them, the US government has put pressure on companies to shut that down. This is the most classic attempt to strangle free speech that has ever occurred.

The people making money from this are the media companies who're mining the site as a 100% free source. ^_^
Well I definitely didn't know they were a non-profit group, that does paint them in a different light for me. I just assumed they were a bunch of sleaze-balls exploiting government secrets for profit. I can at least respect their commitment to informing the public, even if I don't find it particularly commendable.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
KomradeDave at 1:38PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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ozoneocean
Why not take a look? That's what the thread is about :)

Here it is: http://213.251.145.96/

Here's a random “leak” of some info about trade dealings in Montevideo: http://213.251.145.96/cable/2007/03/07MONTEVIDEO287.html
Read through that and see how NON-embarrassing that is. It paints to US in a very, very positive light.



It is not for me to comment one way or another on this particular topic, but I feel the need to remind anyone on this board with a clearance, or that wishes to get one any time in the near future, that it would be a bad idea to follow those links.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
El Cid at 2:22PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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Shit! Now you tell me!
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Blackhoodcomics at 3:41PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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When I was in the military we were taught about OPSEC, or operational security. As an M1A1 tank crewman I had to have a security clearance because of the advanced armor and technology on that tank, and we understood that if the enemy knew certain things about you, they could defeat you. This is why we were never to discuss how many tanks were in the motorpool, to cover the skirt of a tank if it was pierced, and had orders to blow up the tank with grenades before we left it.

Organizations cannot operate effectively without secrets. If Popeyes knew the secret ingredient to KFC's chicken, it would change the nature of their competition. Governments are no different, secret communication is critical to the public welfare, and revealing them without knowing or caring about how they would affect relationships with other nations is just irresponsible.

We instinctivley know that a person that works for an intelligence agency should not sale secrets to anyone, and it is punishable by life in federal prison or even death, but we make excuses for a foreigner that releases our nations secrets.

Our government is not perfect, but it is the best on Earth, and we elect our public officials to do what is in the nations interests. Mr Assange was not elected by anyone and is not accountable to us for his actions. I respect his right to have an opinion but I don't appreciate him gambling with the security of my country because of his personal views.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
blindsk at 8:15PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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El Cid
Well I definitely didn't know they were a non-profit group, that does paint them in a different light for me. I just assumed they were a bunch of sleaze-balls exploiting government secrets for profit.

Well, be careful about changing your opinion on them. Although they are non-profit, their major funding comes from the people behind Pirate Bay. I'm sure you know the site and what those guys are all about.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
ozoneocean at 9:37PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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Blackhoodcomics
Our government is not perfect, but it is the best on Earth
Sorry, that's nothing but jingoisim. It's just a government like nay other. I'm glad you're proud of it, but that sort of assertion is silly.

Blackhoodcomics
and we elect our public officials to do what is in the nations interests. Mr Assange was not elected by anyone and is not accountable to us for his actions. I respect his right to have an opinion but I don't appreciate him gambling with the security of my country because of his personal views.
None of the the diplomatic staffers that made any of those assessments were elected or are accountable to the public either :)
And if you read any of the leaks, often they're working hand in glove with unelected unaccountable representatives of major US companies like GE. ;)
blindsk
Well, be careful about changing your opinion on them. Although they are non-profit, their major funding comes from the people behind Pirate Bay.
as far as I know they get zero funding from those people, they just helped them with their hosting because they're in the same country and have similar views on free speech and the right to information.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
blindsk at 9:45PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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ozoneocean
as far as I know they get zero funding from those people, they just helped them with their hosting because they're in the same country and have similar views on free speech and the right to information.

Yeah, I should have said “through” instead of “from.” Oops on that one. :(
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Orin J Master at 11:05PM, Dec. 15, 2010
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Blackhoodcomics
When I was in the military we were taught about OPSEC, or operational security. As an M1A1 tank crewman I had to have a security clearance because of the advanced armor and technology on that tank, and we understood that if the enemy knew certain things about you, they could defeat you. This is why we were never to discuss how many tanks were in the motorpool, to cover the skirt of a tank if it was pierced, and had orders to blow up the tank with grenades before we left it.

this is actually an awful analogy. military secrets are almost always strictly of the “ways to kill us they don't need to know about” kind at all but the highest levels, and these are political secrets, which run an enormous gambit of reason for existing. no soldier could ever use their knowledge of how, say, a machinegun works to pressure his fellows to let him rape a group of kids but politicians have been doing just that for pretty much all of human history. trying to tie one with the other doesn't stick, because they're really apples and bananas.

Someone
Organizations cannot operate effectively without secrets. If Popeyes knew the secret ingredient to KFC's chicken, it would change the nature of their competition. Governments are no different, secret communication is critical to the public welfare, and revealing them without knowing or caring about how they would affect relationships with other nations is just irresponsible.

conversely, Organizations cannot be expected to never abuse the privilege of keeping secrets. if Popeye's was allowed to keep it's profits secret, then the government would never be able to tax them properly. governments aren't any different, and information kept secret because they were going around behind their allies backs to play both sides for pawns is harmful because the actions of the government is unethical, not that the lost secrecy made it harmful.

Someone
We instinctivley know that a person that works for an intelligence agency should not sale secrets to anyone, and it is punishable by life in federal prison or even death, but we make excuses for a foreigner that releases our nations secrets.
you are misinformed here, actually. those secrets were released to wikileaks by a whistleblower inside the US government. they were given to wikileaks by members of the intelligence community because they felt this information needed to be available. wikileaks published the information, the did not leak it themselves, it was leaked in the ask of being offered to wikileaks.
Someone
Our government is not perfect, but it is the best on Earth
i'm sure lots of otehr nations would liek to debate that, but that's another matter entirely.
Someone
and we elect our public officials to do what is in the nations interests.
not that they're assured to carry that out.

Someone
Mr Assange was not elected by anyone and is not accountable to us for his actions. I respect his right to have an opinion but I don't appreciate him gambling with the security of my country because of his personal views.
if you give the leaked information a good look over, they've taken great lengths to
insure the leaked information does not lead to anyone being targetable as a result. the danger that they've repeatedly warned against is that the US will have it's international ties weakened as a reuslt of it's actions against allies and alongside enemies, which politicians have padded with a great deal of hyperbole.

Mr. Assange's opinions are less important here than what the wikileaks site actually does, which is provide insiders that feel certain secrets are more harmful to their country being kept than they are being pushed into the open with a trustworthy way to do that without placing themselves in danger. wikileaks is staffed by a more impressive stable of people than you might think.

as for the rest of you….i'm gettign the feeling you don't really understand what this information IS.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
bravo1102 at 12:16AM, Dec. 16, 2010
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Once upon a time diplomatic communications were made by sealed pouch and couriers. It was said that gentlemen who not read another gentleman's mail, yet that is precisely what was done all the time.
One side would do what they could to obtain the parcel open it, copy everything then reseal it and use that information for their own purposes.

Here this communication has been leaked and opened for all to look at. Those with a background in history knew these things were being said. That's why John Batchelor already was broadcasting on radio all the stuff wikileaks confirmed.
Now they have proof what was being said and who was saying it. That's why on one hand it really doesn't matter. On the other hand we really didn't want to let them know what we knew and when we knew it.

TO use that OPSEC example,
any prospective enemy of the USA already has copies of all the M1A1 manuals up to and including the Dash 40 that no crewman ever sees, the secret BDAR manuals for release only in time of war and so on. The whole grenade thing is to make certain the enemy didn't get the actual hardware because they already knew everything about it. Another thing that blows OPSEC out of the water, I was once shooed away from an AH-64 Apache that had all its inspection hatches open. I walked into a nearby hobby shop picked up a copy of Verlinden Lock-on AH-64 and it had full color pictures of all the stuff I had been forbidden to look at.

So if you have the interest you already knew this stuff. Military modeller's knew stuff about how things work that the actual crewmen didn't.

(Except I was also a military modeler and read all the stuff they did so I could be one step ahead of them. ;) Look at the military modelling forums and you'll find out stuff that serving troops have no idea about unless they're also model builders)

So it can be argued that these leaks are new only to those who haven't been paying attention.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
Blackhoodcomics at 6:23AM, Dec. 16, 2010
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posts: 10
joined: 8-1-2010
Someone
ozoneocean
Blackhoodcomics
Our government is not perfect, but it is the best on Earth
Sorry, that's nothing but jingoisim. It's just a government like nay other. I'm glad you're proud of it, but that sort of assertion is silly.

No ozoneocean, it is not silly, and your opinion on the matter doesn't change the facts. I'm not given to “jingoisim”, I'm making a logical arguement as a person that has many issues with my country. I have lived in two other countries ( Germany and Kuwait, so I'm no expert )and visited many others. Let's look at my “silly” assertion a little closer, shall we?

A black person was elected head of this country, when just fifty years ago we didn't have the right to vote. Name another country with a discriminated minority who is head of state ( and don't say Great Britain because of Margaret Thatcher. Women were never chattel there )?

While it is true that other governments do some things far better than us, such as health care, criminal justice, and public services, most western countries would never allow a black person to run their country, and have very rigid forms of discrimination in that regard.

The United States struggles with equal rights for many minority groups, such as the mistreatment of Gays and Lesbians, but we have a history of overcoming these problems. This is why we are the leaders of the free world.




last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Blackhoodcomics at 6:37AM, Dec. 16, 2010
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posts: 10
joined: 8-1-2010
Someone
TO use that OPSEC example,
any prospective enemy of the USA already has copies of all the M1A1 manuals up to and including the Dash 40 that no crewman ever sees, the secret BDAR manuals for release only in time of war and so on. The whole grenade thing is to make certain the enemy didn't get the actual hardware because they already knew everything about it. Another thing that blows OPSEC out of the water, I was once shooed away from an AH-64 Apache that had all its inspection hatches open. I walked into a nearby hobby shop picked up a copy of Verlinden Lock-on AH-64 and it had full color pictures of all the stuff I had been forbidden to look at.

So if you have the interest you already knew this stuff. Military modeller's knew stuff about how things work that the actual crewmen didn't.

(Except I was also a military modeler and read all the stuff they did so I could be one step ahead of them. ;) Look at the military modelling forums and you'll find out stuff that serving troops have no idea about unless they're also model builders)

So it can be argued that these leaks are new only to those who haven't been paying attention.


Your OPSEC remark only proves my point further. You never stopped to ask how other groups got the plans to the M1A1. It is precisely because someone did not abide by the rules of OPSEC. Or do you think that the plans to that tank just appeared to our allies and enemies?
Besides, you missed the broader point which is that there are secrets which should remain so. Israel was just caught spying on us several years ago ( as we spy on our allies and enemies alike ) because information makes one stronger.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Orin J Master at 10:34AM, Dec. 16, 2010
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joined: 12-16-2007
Blackhoodcomics
No ozoneocean, it is not silly, and your opinion on the matter doesn't change the facts.

okay, please don't get into that argument. it's an opinion against an opinion, so it has no resolution try and stay on topic instead of lunging at strawmen with friggin' bombs hidden in them.

…why you ignore my argument? i thought i have good points, do i need to burn flags to get your attention?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM

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