Debate and Discussion

Witch
Product Placement at 5:28PM, Jan. 5, 2009
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NickGuy
wow, and here i was assuming that this thread was about witches.

Yeah… It derailed long time ago. Now it seems we're trying to figure out what witches should be called.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
ipokino at 9:26AM, Jan. 6, 2009
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Pagan is just a handy, catch-all word that covers the scope. I like it because when I use it IN THIS COUNTRY, people automatically assume I'm Wiccan. Simple… argue as you will.
Technically, as I believe Gaia is in fact the personification of the entire Planet Earth–I guess I'm an Earth Worshipper. Labels.

Witchcraft is about the real work of re-alligning the probability threads that form our futures into one that we prefer–inasmuch as it does not screw too much with Gaia's plan.

Un-alligned spirituals–ie, demons, ghosts, spirits…whatever–are bits of soul that have chosen NOT to reconnect with Gaia for whatever reason. They DO try to connect with Human souls as a source of spiritual power. I call them ‘Bugs’ and stay clear whenever I sense their presence.

Gods…other than Gaia or her Chaos Attribute Cernunos are ‘bugs’ in my book, just some other unalligned spiritual trying to hitch a ride.

And that's my take on My Faith.

I like to think I'm not crazy, just a mystic…but that's probably another word for crazy in the rational world, eh?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
Hyena H_ll at 11:56AM, Jan. 6, 2009
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ipokino
.

I like to think I'm not crazy, just a mystic…but that's probably another word for crazy in the rational world, eh?

Well, all religious/ spiritual belief systems are by nature “irrational”. (I eschew the use of the world “religion”, as it tends to carry dogmatic connotations and imply the presence of an organized social structure that aren't applicable to all “faiths”.)

My personal motto, for both my life and my faith, is : Credo quia absurdum : “I believe, because it is absurd”. It's an oft-appropriated corruption of a phrase from Terullian's De Carne Christ : (translated from Latin) “”The Son of God was born: there is no shame, because it is shameful. And the Son of God died: it is wholly credible, because it is ridiculous. And, buried, He rose again: it is certain, because impossible."

Not that I'm trying to say that citing early Christian scholars (and somewhat out of context, at that) validates my view point; I just mean to illustrate that a belief in something that cannot be proven is “faith”. Faith by definition is “irrational”. Personally, I don't think accepting the irrational as a part of one's life makes a person “crazy”, or is anything to be looked down on with contempt by those who favor a more rational world view. Nor do I think that science and religion, for example, are necessarily mutually exclusive.

I certainly don't agree with the belief systems of a lot of folks; I might even be enraged by what I see as the blatant “wrongness” of certain world views. But I'm not going to try to convince someone that their faith is any less valid than my own, no matter how silly I think they are. Call me an apologist for the absurd.

And yeah, I think this thread crossed over into the realm of “debate and discussion” a looooong time ago. x_X
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
bravo1102 at 12:49PM, Jan. 6, 2009
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Okay, we went off on a tangent because we were trying to determine what exactly is a pagan.

Is it a generic catch-all for anyone not Christian etc, &c whatever. If an angel has no mass an infinite number can dance on the head of a pin. lol!

I used to be Norse and still salute all crows and ravens as they may be the eyes of Odin All-father.

Neo-paganism often can get as obtuse with its self-definitions as Christians get with their varied teachings. Trinity, Transubstantiation, Perpetual Viginhood, and who runs the church building? A prebyster? Etc.

I once pointed out to Prebysterian that her religious belief was identical to that of an Episcopalian (according to the actual religious belief as opposed to organization) She didn't beleive me until I pulled out the books that deliniated the beliefs of the two denominations and compared them side by side.

Wicca, Druids, and other “old-time” neo-paganism has evolved along the same lines in a much shorter time. Shades of grey and sometimes any differences cannot be discerned without an electron microscope.

Be thankful we're not defining witchcraft using the malleus maleficarum
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
DARKNES at 8:19AM, Jan. 9, 2009
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DARKNES
IM wiccan myself but you should hear the racist comments i get all the time!!!
Then perhaps you're making too big a thing of it? After all, if you don't tell people you're wicca then they can't hold it against you!

I'm not saying you should try to be secretive about it but, when I meet someone who happens to be Christian or Muslim or Hindu or anything else, they're very unlikely to tell me that's what they are, unless (a) the topic of religion happens to come up in conversation (which it very seldom does) or (b) they're the type of person who believes they simply must tell everyone else how wonderful their religion is (in which case, they're far more likely to alienate rather than convert people).

Generally speaking, I find most people are pretty tolerant of all religions (new and old) provided the practitioners just get on with their lives and don't try to “evangelise”!

Believe me i dont, but when i told 3 close friends that i had changed religion….. 3 days later the school new!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
ipokino at 9:08AM, Jan. 9, 2009
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DARKNES
Believe me i dont, but when i told 3 close friends that i had changed religion….. 3 days later the school new!!!!!

I lived in Ireland for a time, and religious intolerance ran very deep there…of course that was in the seventies and the middle of “The Troubles” in the north, but I can imagine you have had some issues with ‘coming out’. I myself have not told my own parents and family–who are fanatically christian (buckle of the bible belt–Obama is a Muslim terrorist–Hillary Clinton is Satan's Mistress and in God and the Republican Party we trust…ect)–because I know this would cause a huge rift…something to avoid when your parents are in their seventies. I did leave them a copy of my novel “Memories of Ghenna” which does kind of take a bow to my faith structure–last summer at family re-union. No word on how that went over yet.

There are some battles you cannot win–and generally, as this very forum thread illustrates–religion is a biggie. I don't hide my faith, but I don't advertize it either. I feel for you, but, its one of life's harder lessons I guess.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
DARKNES at 9:16AM, Jan. 9, 2009
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I have not told my parents either, but somethings are much higher than that….. the call to your own faith. and there will always be some guy who will say burn that witch even tho he does not practice his own faith!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
anise shaw at 11:47AM, Jan. 11, 2009
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DARKNES
Come on tell me what ye think of witchcraft

My dear, my dear, witchcraft and wicca are two completely different things. Many people external to the whole new-age pagan practice may not see the different, but us witches would rather not be called “Wiccans” willy nilly. I don't believe in the Goddess, I don't have Gardnerian rituals and I don't keep a book of shadows. Witchcraft is a practice, Wicca is a religion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:53AM
Hyena H_ll at 1:08PM, Jan. 11, 2009
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anise shaw
DARKNES
Come on tell me what ye think of witchcraft

My dear, my dear, witchcraft and wicca are two completely different things. Many people external to the whole new-age pagan practice may not see the different, but us witches would rather not be called “Wiccans” willy nilly. I don't believe in the Goddess, I don't have Gardnerian rituals and I don't keep a book of shadows. Witchcraft is a practice, Wicca is a religion.

Word.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
DARKNES at 8:34AM, Feb. 18, 2009
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Wow we have posted alot……. so would any felleow wiccans, witches or anyone else like to make a type of coven for dd? :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
Walrus at 1:42PM, Feb. 18, 2009
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Here's what I think:
Someone
#
What Is Witchcraft?

1 Samuel 15:23 (NAS) “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry…”

# Witchcraft: Wanting to be a spiritual “mover and shaker” without submitting to God. Witchcraft is rebellion coupled with a desire to “stay in the game”, to be a spiritual player.

How Witchcraft Works

John 8:44-45 (NIV) “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire… When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!”

# All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. God gives power to those who believe the truth. To approach God, truth is the cost of entry.

# But it is the opposite with Satan, whose nature is deception. Satan gives power to those who believe a lie. Believing the lie is the cost of entry to access Satan's power. Witchcraft bolsters up the lie with: mystery, pseudo-science, ancient knowledge, new knowledge, etc…. The more absurd the lie, the better. The lie acts as a distracter.

# If we mix certain ingredients in a drink… If we eat a special herb… If we arrange candles in a certain configuration… If we stare into a crystal ball… If we turn over Tarot cards… If we “read” the stars… If we speak a certain phrase, or mantra… If we have secret knowledge… If we draw certain symbols… then spiritual forces will come into play.

James 3:15 (NIV) Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

# Witchcraft starts with a heart of rebellion and works by focusing on a distracter, a lie, which is some technique purported to release power. It is important to have “faith”, to trust in the technique and not God. Believing in lies is an “acceptable sacrifice” to Satan, the father of lies, who honors his children with real power. The irony is, that due to the inherent deceptive basis of witchcraft, the practitioners of it often think they are serving God, while accessing a power from below (earth)–not from above.

# For the purpose of this study, we are defining witchcraft as a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God or regard for His word.

1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV) “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you…”

Psalms 107:11 (NIV) For they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.

Nehemiah 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”

Does Witchcraft Work?

# Even though Satan is usually the furthest thing from the mind, the “father of lies” honors the self-delusion inherent in witchcraft by occasionally releasing power, even doing supernatural miracles for those who have rebelled against God and yet still want to be spiritually effective. By this means, real power can be exerted to achieve health, beauty, enchantment, supernatural sensitivity, “insight” through drugs and experiences, oracles and visions, and the like. In this sense, witchcraft works.

Exodus 7:22 (NIV) But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:7 (NIV) But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

# Witchcraft is characterized by belief in “knowledge from below”, and rejection of “knowledge from above”. In it's more advanced and powerful stages, delusion and belief in what is clearly not of God is key. Satan's tacit “deal” is: if you sacrifice truth on his altar, he will give you power for what you want now. But lies are flimsy things to put your trust in…

Exodus 8:18 (NIV) But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.

Isaiah 47:12 (NIV) “Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.”



kyupol
I think its dangerous stuff. You gotta be careful or else.

My mom has a friend who's daughter used to be into all of this witchcraft stuff and Ouija boards. Then one night a demon or demons was shaking her bed back and forth and howling. Finally she caved in and said,“In God's name I demand you to leave.” The demon instantly left and she gave up on all the Satan worshiping and went back to church.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:45PM
DARKNES at 4:50AM, Feb. 19, 2009
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Walrus
Here's what I think:
Someone
#
What Is Witchcraft?

1 Samuel 15:23 (NAS) “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry…”

# Witchcraft: Wanting to be a spiritual “mover and shaker” without submitting to God. Witchcraft is rebellion coupled with a desire to “stay in the game”, to be a spiritual player.

How Witchcraft Works

John 8:44-45 (NIV) “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire… When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!”

# All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. God gives power to those who believe the truth. To approach God, truth is the cost of entry.

# But it is the opposite with Satan, whose nature is deception. Satan gives power to those who believe a lie. Believing the lie is the cost of entry to access Satan's power. Witchcraft bolsters up the lie with: mystery, pseudo-science, ancient knowledge, new knowledge, etc…. The more absurd the lie, the better. The lie acts as a distracter.

# If we mix certain ingredients in a drink… If we eat a special herb… If we arrange candles in a certain configuration… If we stare into a crystal ball… If we turn over Tarot cards… If we “read” the stars… If we speak a certain phrase, or mantra… If we have secret knowledge… If we draw certain symbols… then spiritual forces will come into play.

James 3:15 (NIV) Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

# Witchcraft starts with a heart of rebellion and works by focusing on a distracter, a lie, which is some technique purported to release power. It is important to have “faith”, to trust in the technique and not God. Believing in lies is an “acceptable sacrifice” to Satan, the father of lies, who honors his children with real power. The irony is, that due to the inherent deceptive basis of witchcraft, the practitioners of it often think they are serving God, while accessing a power from below (earth)–not from above.

# For the purpose of this study, we are defining witchcraft as a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God or regard for His word.

1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV) “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you…”

Psalms 107:11 (NIV) For they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.

Nehemiah 9:26 (NIV) “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”

Does Witchcraft Work?

# Even though Satan is usually the furthest thing from the mind, the “father of lies” honors the self-delusion inherent in witchcraft by occasionally releasing power, even doing supernatural miracles for those who have rebelled against God and yet still want to be spiritually effective. By this means, real power can be exerted to achieve health, beauty, enchantment, supernatural sensitivity, “insight” through drugs and experiences, oracles and visions, and the like. In this sense, witchcraft works.

Exodus 7:22 (NIV) But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:7 (NIV) But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

# Witchcraft is characterized by belief in “knowledge from below”, and rejection of “knowledge from above”. In it's more advanced and powerful stages, delusion and belief in what is clearly not of God is key. Satan's tacit “deal” is: if you sacrifice truth on his altar, he will give you power for what you want now. But lies are flimsy things to put your trust in…

Exodus 8:18 (NIV) But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.

Isaiah 47:12 (NIV) “Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.”



kyupol
I think its dangerous stuff. You gotta be careful or else.

My mom has a friend who's daughter used to be into all of this witchcraft stuff and Ouija boards. Then one night a demon or demons was shaking her bed back and forth and howling. Finally she caved in and said,“In God's name I demand you to leave.” The demon instantly left and she gave up on all the Satan worshiping and went back to church.



How dare you say that witchcraft is devil worshiping!!!!

And what makes you think that this god of yours was catholic or whatever religion she is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
6497315 at 9:31PM, Feb. 19, 2009
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Now now, lets not get all up into a religious war. Soon atheists will be in here preaching their anti-God crap and Christians will start yellin' scripture to nobody but themselves and wiccans will be cursing both with EVIL spells!

I actually dont know what to think of Wicca or witchcraft. Every wiccan I have ever seen tended to have some real mental issues. I guess as long as you dont turn me into a chicken, then it couldnt be… ALL bad. But still, bending the laws of nature for one's own selfish gain is a little… bad.

By the way, I dont think God is a “She.” I think God is more of a… well… “It” for lack of a better word.
“WHAT IS THIS MICKEY MOUSE SH*T?!”- R. Lee Ermey
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:44AM
bravo1102 at 1:18AM, Feb. 20, 2009
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I concur the world has seen (and sees) enough wars in the name of religion.

Wiccans no more worship the devil/satan than Catholicism is the international plague and conspiracy that Chirstian fundamentalists often paint it as or that Jews cook and eat babies, poison wells and plot world domination.

There is plenty of evil in the world without invoking an all encompassing personified force named Satan.

Calling the deity “she” is a great way to irritate conventional Judeo-Christian/Muslim types so for someone with a sense of humor like mine it's too good to pass up. ;)

Though I do have a complicated theological explanation just to irk them some more.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 6:32AM, Feb. 20, 2009
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bravo1102
I concur the world has seen (and sees) enough wars in the name of religion.
There haven't been any, really . There never are.;)

War is war. People fight for their “group”, for whatever tenuous thread that links them as a group. Not for religion, although people think it looks way way. That's just part of their shared cultural link. The fact is that religion is incidental. Look deeper into those conflicts for the real reasons.

The name of religion is used as a shorthand for describing complicated historical events. It's convenient.
-I had paragraphs here explaining why the crusades and the protestant/catholic wars weren't really about religion, but it was too boring, long and involved! It really IS easier just to say “war in the name of religion”. lol!

—————————–

-Eh, a god's sex is whatever its believers say it is really. They're the only experts that really matter, aren't they?

That's the trouble with people like Dawkins. They forget that we don't live in a scientific, logical world. We live in a human world, with everything we know see and filtered through human perception and that of those who've gone before. Not a world of objective reality, but one of human culture filtered consensus reality. Which is why we have religion and even science in the first place.
It's why people reinvented “witchcraft” in the 20th century, something that never really existed before in history, and even after all the technological and cultural change that's happened since many of the truly old religions first began, now people reinvent those as well.
Just part of being human. :)

If we were computers or maybe some other species maybe we wouldn't have religion? Or maybe we would anyway…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:33PM
Whatshername at 7:48AM, Feb. 20, 2009
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Wicca and witchcraft are fascinating, if you ask me.
You have a large group of people who identify themselves as ‘wiccan’ or ‘witches’,
and they all worship different gods, and well, I dunno. It's kind of cool and unifying, don't you think?
Devout christian. Autistic. Webcomic creator who will draw WOMEN, not walking, talking sex toys. ;) Don't worry. I don't bite.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:48PM
crocty at 3:55PM, Feb. 20, 2009
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Wahey! Debate and Discussion! I could've sworn I clicked general discussion!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:52AM
Mister Kent at 12:48AM, Feb. 22, 2009
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Urm..this is generally a debate about witches. It can be moved but I think the thread's fine where it is.

Witches! Yay. If you want to be a witch, be a witch, Original Poster (who has likely long abandoned this thread and/or site). Do not be surprised if you're discriminated against for it. By all means, don't let that stop you from witchin' it up - just don't expect much positivity by the main stream.

In the so-called “Main Stream”, it's widely acceptable not to believe in anything, but if you believe in something other than the Big 5 religions–Look Out!

Like so many other people have said, Original Poster and anyone interested, you've got to do it for you, and that's the real and only* point to this discussion.

(Other than all the well-argued and valid points made by everyone else…those were pretty good too :D)
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
DARKNES at 8:20AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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I believe many witches are descriminated against everyday!!!!

For instance i was at a funeral several days ago and i was asked to leave the graveyard well this enraged me to the highest…… Is not everyone entiteled to their own way of life!

A catholic said to me the other day….''your so fucking wierd how can you worship more then one god'' So i replied how can you bad mouth wiccans when you worship a 3000 year old carpentar!

So all i am saying is respect everyone!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
HippieVan at 8:55AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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DARKNES
For instance i was at a funeral several days ago and i was asked to leave the graveyard well this enraged me to the highest…… Is not everyone entiteled to their own way of life!

How did they know you were a witch/wiccan?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
skoolmunkee at 9:09AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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A person who goes around saying they're a witch all the time and geting offended when someone gets tired of that or disagrees with them is just as bad as a person from any other religion or belief doing the same thing. It's not prejudice against a religion, it's getting fed up with a person.

If you know that a lot of people around you aren't open to your religion, isn't pushing them about it kind of antagonizing?
  IT'S OLD BATMAN
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:42PM
DARKNES at 9:11AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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skoolmunkee
A person who goes around saying they're a witch all the time and geting offended when someone gets tired of that or disagrees with them is just as bad as a person from any other religion or belief doing the same thing. It's not prejudice against a religion, it's getting fed up with a person.

Oh i guess you where bloody standing next to me where you!!! No you wern't so dont go maiking these acusations!

LITTLE MISS KNOW-IT ALL
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
Niccea at 9:14AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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Wasn't an accustation I believe. I think it is a statement. I don't care if you worship the ancient Greek gods. Just don't go waving it in my face. I disagree with evangelists in general. I don't believe that people should force anything on anyone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:12PM
DARKNES at 9:14AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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Only 5 people know about my religious beliefs so dont go around saying that BS


someone found out by looking at my bebo groups! 0_0
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
HippieVan at 9:15AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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DARKNES
skoolmunkee
A person who goes around saying they're a witch all the time and geting offended when someone gets tired of that or disagrees with them is just as bad as a person from any other religion or belief doing the same thing. It's not prejudice against a religion, it's getting fed up with a person.

Oh i guess you where bloody standing next to me where you!!! No you wern't so dont go maiking these acusations!

LITTLE MISS KNOW-IT ALL

So you don't tell people that you're a witch? Again, how did the people at this funeral know?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
DARKNES at 9:17AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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Niccea
Wasn't an accustation I believe. I think it is a statement. I don't care if you worship the ancient Greek gods. Just don't go waving it in my face. I disagree with evangelists in general. I don't believe that people should force anything on anyone.

If anyone on this group thinks in anyway that i am waving it in their face sorry but, i set this group up so the main topic could be withces and wicca and any other post.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
DARKNES at 9:22AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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It was just one of the five that i did tell…… and the only reason that i told them was because i used to be an alterserver in a catholic church and…… well…… to me i believe i found a calling in life!

But when they say omg he is a witch they say ‘'alterserver now a satan worshiper!’' then i dont want people thinking that!

I don't just go ‘'hey i am a witch….. acknowledge me!’'
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
crocty at 9:32AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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DARKNES
how can you bad mouth wiccans when you worship a 3000 year old carpentar!
Jesus is 2000 years old.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:52AM
Niccea at 10:24AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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crocty
DARKNES
how can you bad mouth wiccans when you worship a 3000 year old carpentar!
Jesus is 2000 years old.
Actually. He was born in the year 3 A.D. so he is 2,006 years old.
Which is why theological discussions are are pointless.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:12PM
crocty at 10:44AM, Feb. 24, 2009
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joined: 8-16-2007
Well I didn't know we were getting technical here. I was just rounding it down, as I was assumming Darknes did. :o
Although if we did get technical I'd have said he was 2009 years old, but whatevs. >_>
:O Wait 2008!
THIS NEW SITE SUCKS I'M LEAVING FOREVER I PROMISE, GUYS.
NOT BLUFFING, I'M GONE IF YOU DON'T FIX IT.
Oh god I'm so alone someone pay attention to me
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:52AM

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