General Discussion

Worst Experience with Peer Artists
Mazoo at 4:44PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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What's the worst experience you've had with a fellow and/or peer artist/writer in your lifetime?

Mine's the time I was in Painting Class last year. We were painting self-portraits and during the class this girl comes up to me and asks, “What do you think of this? I can't tell if something is off or not.” I replied with “That's really good, actually. It's got a great likeness to you. However, I think the eyes are a bit small and far apart. Otherwise it's really good, though.” The girl then snaps back, "No. They're not. What would you know about proportion?" and walks away. I was so confused. I thought she had come to me for help, and when I give it, she acts as though I were attacking her.

The thing that bugs me the most is that she's a fantastic artist, and she believes, (and does!) get away with crap like that. Her being a much better artist than I am doesn't annoy me. What annoys me is the elitist attutide that tends to come with greatness. And that's on a whole. Anyone who is superb at something, be it acting, playing sports, or even cooking has no right to act like they are a better person than everyone else because of it. Skill does not give you a free pass to being a kind and considerate person. I believe arrogance to be one of the worst of human traits… ever.

Ah. That was a nice litte rant.

Anyways, how about you guys? Got any bad fellow-artist or fellow-writer experiences?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:56PM
ccs1989 at 4:54PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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Well, doing comics for a while and also reading lots of them makes one familiar with how pacing is supposed to be in a comic. Pacing is possibly the most important thing that one can do in sequential art, to use a cliche term, and it's a reason why I really admire many Japanese artists who are masters of pacing, and why I think that many Marvel comics need work, because some have awful pacing.

Anyway I was working with someone and I offered to draw their short story (this isn't anyone on DD). So I get the script and it's supposed to be for 9 pages, but they only have the layout done for 9 panels. I asked them about it an they said they wanted each page to be a panel. The problem is that takes up 9 pages of what is supposed to be a short story. Even worse, they didn't know how to construct pacing in a story outside of a single page, which really messes up the flow when a comic is read in succession. So the pacing was terrible and the comic read ridiculously badly.

As far as bad experiences with peer artists, I just find some people are insistent about the anime style being the begin all and end all, so that when they see on person's sketchbook drawn in an anime style they'll think it's really good, but when they see a realistic sketchbook they'll think it's bad, boring, or uninspired, even though anime style is an extreme iconic rendering of a face, simplified greatly, and much easier to draw. Although I wouldn't say that people who think that anime style is the greatest thing to happen to art are really artists anyway.

Well that's my pompous little rant here. :P
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
ozoneocean at 4:59PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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When something means a lot to us, like our skill in art or whatever, sometimes we react badly when someone who we don't think is quite as skilled as us offers criticism. It's not elitism, just pride. I know I'm a pretty good artist, but I also know that I could always do some things better… When people point out problems that I'm too blind to see in my work I try not to react like a peevish fool… It can take me weeks to see what they mean, but they're usually always right. An artist who reacts badly to criticism hurts no one more than themselves.

It's easier for people to take advice from those they see as superior, because they seem more qualified. That's just a fact of life. It's wrong though, helpful advice can come from anywhere.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
WingNut at 5:11PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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Not gonna lie, I'm a self taught bottom feeder. I take advice from everybody, and my worst critic is my own anal retentiveness.

I get into fights with myself while drawing, but I take out all the aggression on myself, so it makes my interactions with other people much more personable and pleasant. :D

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:50PM
Juliechan at 7:37PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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Hmmm…I draw manga-like characters so I've had a lot of diffrent comments from diffrent groups and people. Not all bad, but for sure not all good.

Most of the time it's pretty much like perfectionist stuff like, ‘his eye is a little too big for that angle’ or something. So no big deal, but I have to say my biggest problem with it was probably…last year in my art class.
I was coloring a picture represting the gay/lesbian/bi day of silence. ( me not knowing about until it was too late) And this girl who's pretty artistic herself (makes really small detailed designs all over the page) comes and sits down next to me. I commented about how cool her picture looked once it was done. She thanked me, looked at my picture, gave me an odd look and said to me:

“Why do you draw manga? (said it wrong)”
Me: “um, because I like to?”
Her: “Oh well, Manga is such a lazy art form…” pauses. “If you can even call it that, I don't consider it anything more than silly little comics.”

Now, I have no problem with people not like anime/manga and/or comics in general. I can totally understand and relate to a degree. What I cannot stand is her (or anyone) going out and saying (TO MY FACE especially)that she not only hates the style I draw in (Lazy? Pfft, you draw a manga-like character sometime you narrow minded odnjrbfjr…-intended at the girl) but also about what I'm passionate about.
How dare ANYONE accuse comics of ANY kind of NOT being art. ANYTHING can be art. The media and whatever may favor more ‘realalistic’ and more down to earth styles, but accusing something of NOT being art is just flat out cold and unfair. Not to mention stating an opinion that is not true.
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Come on now guys, that's step one you learn in pre-k.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:11PM
subcultured at 7:42PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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that's why i prefer working alone on my comic..it's hard to give up part of the creativity to someone else
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:00PM
Green_Tangerine at 10:20PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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Worst experience ever… this is a good one.

In a college art class, we finally had the much anticipated “model wearing just a sheet” sketch. There was this one kid named Jack who'd always make harsh, rude comments about everyone else's work. Well, about five minutes into the sketch, he starts mumbling something like ‘dumb b*tch’, prof asks him what's wrong, and he blows up about how the model was posed. She sits up, everyone goes “agh, you moved!” and the class got cancelled because it degenerated into a giant screamfest.

Our next class was an hour-long lecture on maturity.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:38PM
ozoneocean at 10:28PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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Green_Tangerine
the class got cancelled because it degenerated into a giant screamfest.
That's just amazing! o.O
In all my art classes people were as nice as anything to each other. All the self depreciation and compliments started to get a bit silly. A friend and I started this thing where we'd do the opposite and talk about how fantastic our OWN work was and how crap the other person's was. That was hilarious, precisely because it was so opposite to our normal behaviour. But to actually have people who really were like that and took themselves seriously? Wow.
That guy would've been thrown out if he studied here.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Green_Tangerine at 10:59PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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haha,
it was actually an elective class for the science & medical students, not ‘real’ artists, (hence the model not actually being naked) and from what I heard, his grade really suffered due to his conduct.

I've seen more than a few out-of-control arguments, med & nursing students tend to be really high strung..
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:38PM
Mark at 4:38AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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ccs1989
Well, doing comics for a while and also reading lots of them makes one familiar with how pacing is supposed to be in a comic. Pacing is possibly the most important thing that one can do in sequential art, to use a cliche term, and it's a reason why I really admire many Japanese artists who are masters of pacing, and why I think that many Marvel comics need work, because some have awful pacing.

Anyway I was working with someone and I offered to draw their short story (this isn't anyone on DD). So I get the script and it's supposed to be for 9 pages, but they only have the layout done for 9 panels. I asked them about it an they said they wanted each page to be a panel. The problem is that takes up 9 pages of what is supposed to be a short story. Even worse, they didn't know how to construct pacing in a story outside of a single page, which really messes up the flow when a comic is read in succession. So the pacing was terrible and the comic read ridiculously badly.

As far as bad experiences with peer artists, I just find some people are insistent about the anime style being the begin all and end all, so that when they see on person's sketchbook drawn in an anime style they'll think it's really good, but when they see a realistic sketchbook they'll think it's bad, boring, or uninspired, even though anime style is an extreme iconic rendering of a face, simplified greatly, and much easier to draw. Although I wouldn't say that people who think that anime style is the greatest thing to happen to art are really artists anyway.

Well that's my pompous little rant here. :P

Are you talking about being partners with Glarg for my Short Stories? Oh sorry dude…

Anyways worst collab with aritst. Hmm (long story warning)…

It started just after the school year started. I signed up for this social service called “mural” where we got into groups and did a art piece on a 1mX1m aluminium board. So my artsy friends and I got together and decided to form a group. Then my friend Udayan, whose got no art talent whatsoever and plenty of delusions of eloquence decides to join.

Over the course of the project he has fucked it up in every way thinkable, spilling turpentine on it intentionally, screwing up the painting, mixing the most horrendus colours and putting it on. And on top of that trying his best to be generally counter prodictive.

To make worse he's been bitching the whole way through about his great artistic ability and being the “artiste”. Eg, he screws up some painting:
“oh that's because I'm not using my usual brush”
“It's the same brush udayan”
“to you it is, I'm an artiste, I can feel the minor differences”

The rest of us managed to finish it today (thank god). It doesn't look great, but at least we got it from “dogshit” to “meh”
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:54PM
Tantz Aerine at 7:05AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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I suffer from my own self many times- I go over and over in a story, imagining a million criticisms that may come my way and taking care not to have them come my way (especially when it came to plot and plot holes (or lack thereof) in Art of Veiling I spent WEEKS eating at my own plot trying to find bugs until there were none visible even by myself). So I'm self-punishing regarding my art.

With another person, I remember someone throwing themselves into a big fit because I drew males with very long hair. Said I promoted homosexuality and my pad should be burnt O.o I tried to edge away from that person in a calm, orderly fashion and not look at him in the eyes. You know. Just in case :P Heheh. But that's it, really :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Whirlwynd at 7:07AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Apart from the rare backhanded compliment about drawing my works in an anime look or a flame, I haven't had many bad experiences with other artists. Actually, I haven't met many artists in real life - I only took a handful of art classes. Though there was this one guy on a messageboard I used to go to - he sent me an instant message out of nowhere and starts ranting on about how bad the other artists there are and how awesome his comic ideas and art are. They weren't that good. And a couple of artists he was ranting about happened to be friends of mine. After that, all I heard from him was "What do you think of this pic? “ and ”Can you draw me this?“ and some other stuff that kinda creeped me out. When I switched usernames I only gave my new name out to friends, so I never heard from him again. Someone told me that most of the people on the messageboard had blocked the guy.

Another time a friend of mine yelled at me writing only in a ”middle school format" (and also reamed me out for drawing anime-style) o_0 I write young adult fiction, isn't that generally where my audience is going to be? It wasn't that bad, but it just kind of came out of left field. Before then, things had been really friendly and at the least, constructive. I think she was just taking out frustrations on me, though. Later she said that at this new art school she was attending her critics had been very harsh.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:48PM
Aurora Moon at 8:14AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Tantz Aerine
With another person, I remember someone throwing themselves into a big fit because I drew males with very long hair. Said I promoted homosexuality and my pad should be burnt O.o I tried to edge away from that person in a calm, orderly fashion and not look at him in the eyes. You know. Just in case :P Heheh. But that's it, really :)

lol, my response would had been: “Okay, let me ask you something. So if men with long hair is gay, then what do you make out of my VERY musclar lumberjack father, who happens to be very straight and is married to my mother? He has long hair which he likes to tie back into an ponytail. And he would totally beat you up for even condsering him to be an gay person. So… obivously, Hair matters none at all when it comes to dermining the sexuality of an person. so what do you think of that?”

as for bad experiences from artists or peers… well, usually it's just idiots who think that drawing Manga isn't hard at all and etc, and criticize me for “taking the easy way out”… I actually find drawing realistic people to be VERY easy, while Manga isn't that easy since I have to deal with proportions and distorting them to the point where it might be “realistic” but in an anime way. if you know what I mean?

so usually I just ingore them, or ask them to draw an manga picture for me if they find it so easy. after all, if they want to prove me wrong then they got to back it up. and usually most of the time, they fail at it. lol
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Tantz Aerine at 8:45AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Aurora Moon
lol, my response would had been: “Okay, let me ask you something. So if men with long hair is gay, then what do you make out of my VERY musclar lumberjack father, who happens to be very straight and is married to my mother? He has long hair which he likes to tie back into an ponytail. And he would totally beat you up for even condsering him to be an gay person. So… obivously, Hair matters none at all when it comes to dermining the sexuality of an person. so what do you think of that?”



You'd have found it to be a waste of argumentation and saliva, really… cos he'd just write you off as heretic or something. Of course, he'd forget that long or short hair is a social construct, as at different times in society there were different standards. Ancient Spartans were said to have extremely long hair which they would very carefully comb to the point of coquettish primness before battle… but I doubt they were gay… or effeminate XD

As for drawing styles (manga or not) I think they are all challenging in their own right. (some Manga have so much detail it's mind boggling) Anyone who looks down on any style should really reconsider things and approaches to art as a medium of expression.


 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Aurora Moon at 8:57AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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yeah, but it might had shut him up or at least distract him by forcing him to think for one second while I make a quick getaway.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Tantz Aerine at 9:02AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Heh. Maybe.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
WingNut at 9:28AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Thats why I always pack obscuring ninja smoke.

Just in case.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:50PM
ozoneocean at 9:50AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Tantz Aerine
Ancient Spartans were said to have extremely long hair which they would very carefully comb to the point of coquettish primness before battle… but I doubt they were gay… or effeminate XD
Oh they weren't effeminate or “gay” the way we think about it, because there wasn't such a thing then, but they did have sex with other men and boys. It was just a very different culture…

And gay people having long hair? That's never been popular… I mean, the whole idea behind male homosexuality is that men find other men attractive because they're men, not because they look like women. DUH! And if a man does find other men a turn on because they look feminine, he's obviously not as gay as he thinks he is. ;)
-I've only ever met one gay man with long hair. He was a tranny. :)
You should counter his argument by saying he was trying to “look gay” by having short hair!

Wow, that's off the subject isn't it? But there really hasn't been too much about arrogant artists here. Just a little trickle. Critics are probably the most arrogant group I've ever come across: not only to the people they specialise in criticising, but to there peers as well. They're bastards. Food, theatre, film, art, music, it makes no difference.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Tantz Aerine at 12:14PM, Dec. 14, 2006
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ozoneocean
Wow, that's off the subject isn't it? But there really hasn't been too much about arrogant artists here. Just a little trickle. Critics are probably the most arrogant group I've ever come across: not only to the people they specialise in criticising, but to there peers as well. They're bastards. Food, theatre, film, art, music, it makes no difference.

Hah, I knew someone would point that out about Spartans! Actually, Athenians were more into that. Spartans did not do that as widely and never as a basic behavioral pattern (then it was considered weird and shunned… go figure).

As for critics, I concurr… and not only that, most of the critics (at least in Greece) wouldn't be able to create a single piece of art to save their bloody lives, too! Sheesh.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Neilsama at 7:55PM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Criticism is one thing. Peer criticism is something we all need.

If there's one thing that truly makes me explode, it's when, in addition to offering criticism, the fellow artist decides to draw on top of my drawings, as if they're at liberty to do that. I've actually had this happen to me on a couple of occaisions, and it's grounds for X-Acto blade revenge!

I don't care how bad the drawing is. If I'm flipping through my old stuff, I always get a little angry whenever I come across the ones that have been vandalized.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
PlayerOne at 10:57PM, Dec. 14, 2006
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ccs1989
so that when they see on person's sketchbook drawn in an anime style they'll think it's really good, but when they see a realistic sketchbook they'll think it's bad, boring, or uninspired


I want to hug you.


I dispise the manga drawing style. No offence to any manga artists here, I just really don't like it. Realistic sketches, on the other hand, are among my favorite forms of art, second only to highly simplistic monochromic drawings.


Also, I hate the whole “Japan is in” thing. Seems like everyone wants to be japanese. “OMG I LUV TOKIO KAWAIIIIIIII!!!!!!” Yeah, well, you're not japanese. Live with it. No amount of sketching or watching anime will change that.


I like being white. There's no good racial slurs agains me.



Stay salty,
-PlayerOne


(PS: If you're actually japanese, go anime crazy all you want.)

(PSS: I'm my own worst critic. Not in the “Oh I'm always too hard on myself” sappy way that movie guys mean it; I'm actually my worst critic because for me “Good enough is”. And that's a bad critic.)
I'm glad I'm not an Oscar Meyer wiener. That would tottaly suck.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Aurora Moon at 3:07AM, Dec. 15, 2006
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so, playerone, you basically just hate it because you think it's been overhyped?

not really giving that anime style an fair chance, I must say.

I don't really think realstic style is boring or uninspired… but I suppose you gonna have to see it from those people's viewpoint. living in America or even in other english-speaking countries like Austrila, they're so used to seeing superhero comics with that realstic style going on… and heck, they even grew up with Harrbera-barbabra style cartoons where half of the cartoons were done realstic-style.. where the humans have all the correct proportions going on.

so having been around that for so long, I suppose that they could easily feel like that sort of thing is “so old and uninspired.”…..But when they enconter anime it's something new and different, and be more into the other types of stuff they're into… not just superhero stuff.

Heck, having grown up around that, I find it SO easy to draw realstic style like it's nothing…but the Manga stuff, I sometimes find diffcult. so that's why I focus more on Manga/Anime style for my comics online, so that I can practice at it.

it IS silly that they would stun the realstic style in favor for anime/manga though.. Just like how I find it competely silly that YOU would stun the Anime/manga style in favor for the realstic style just because you find the hype of anime/manga tiring and think that Manga is way “too easy”.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 5:59AM, Dec. 15, 2006
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Player one, I've just had to edit your post. You worngly attributed a quote to me that was actually made by ccs1989. I've rectified that now.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Enef at 9:22AM, Dec. 15, 2006
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Artists make the worst peers.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:22PM
Tantz Aerine at 11:16AM, Dec. 15, 2006
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Hmmm. I think housewives hold that 1st, don't they?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
PlayerOne at 6:49PM, Dec. 15, 2006
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Aurora Moon
so, playerone, you basically just hate it because you think it's been overhyped?

not really giving that anime style an fair chance, I must say.

Well, that's my point, it's overhyped. Everyone's all head over heels about anime while I think it's not as good as everyone says.

Aurora Moon
I don't really think realstic style is boring or uninspired… but I suppose you gonna have to see it from those people's viewpoint. living in America or even in other english-speaking countries like Austrila, they're so used to seeing superhero comics with that realstic style going on…

I mean the REALLY REALLY realistic. Like “Almost a photo”.

Aurora Moon
and heck, they even grew up with Harrbera-barbabra style cartoons where half of the cartoons were done realstic-style.. where the humans have all the correct proportions going on.

Sorry, but:
1. Hanna-Barbera.
2. None of the cartoons were done in a realistic style.
3. The humans do NOT have proper proportion.


Aurora Moon
so having been around that for so long, I suppose that they could easily feel like that sort of thing is “so old and uninspired.”…..But when they enconter anime it's something new and different, and be more into the other types of stuff they're into… not just superhero stuff.

Here it's the opposite: Lots of people draw in the anime style. It's far from domination, but there's more of it.


Aurora Moon
it IS silly that they would stun the realstic style in favor for anime/manga though.. Just like how I find it competely silly that YOU would stun the Anime/manga style in favor for the realstic style just because you find the hype of anime/manga tiring and think that Manga is way “too easy”.

I never said it was easy. I only said, and I quote: “I dispise the manga drawing style. No offence to any manga artists here, I just really don't like it”.

ozoneocean
Player one, I've just had to edit your post. You worngly attributed a quote to me that was actually made by ccs1989. I've rectified that now.

So I did. Thanks.





Heh. Rectify.
I'm glad I'm not an Oscar Meyer wiener. That would tottaly suck.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
ccs1989 at 9:05PM, Dec. 15, 2006
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To clear up a few things, it's not that I don't like the anime style. I'm part of an anime club and I respect a lot of the things that come out of Japan, especially fantastic works of art such as Berserk or the second Ghost in the Shell movie. It's just that I think the fandom overuses it. I've stated this elsewhere on these forums, but the jist is that I feel good foundations in realistic art are necessary to an artist before they develop a style. However I'm all for the whole One World thing, so if an artist feels inspired by things from Japan, there's no reason they shouldn't incorporate some of that into their own work, provided that they know how to draw realistically first.

What I was basically saying in my post is that people don't understand the importance of realistic art, or art that's heavily detailed while still being abstract. Instead they go for the more mass marketed style which has greater surface appeal, and decide that they should only draw that way. It's a dangerous path.





http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Aussie_kid at 5:08AM, Dec. 16, 2006
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Well, two weeks before DD went down, some one (Who shall remain nameless) offered to make a comic with me. I was to write, they would draw. So I did the first page, something nice and simple. They said they'd have it ready by the next day. DD went down and then I moved over to Smackjeeves. Finally, a few days before DD was scheduled to go up, I got an email from said artist. I could've done a better job. It was a 20 second sketch and almost nothing like I had written.

Another problem. I wrote a comic that was to be my main DD comic (GG and EtD were originally never going to happen, as I would have focussed all my time into said comic. The partnership was made just after Christmas. Close to a year later, I haven't even seen any concept art. I spoke to her a week ago, she only just made a start, even though she got her sister as a co-artist back in March.

And then there was the business with Raytch, the former artist of Warriors of the Night. Probably one of the worst problems I've ever had. At least with the other two, I had seen their artwork and if they did start updating regularly, it would've been worth the wait. With her, she showed me four styles, I picked a darker one and she even redrew the characters how she wanted to, completely different to how I asked. Then I got ranted at, lost contact for weeks and some other stuff. So glad I got Jayfri now (He's much more reliable and even if there was a hiatus, he'd be worth waiting for)

I have several other stories, including artists who wanted to try for a go at Eternal Life and Gemini Storm, but that's enough for now.

Until next time
The Aussie Kid
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Aurora Moon at 6:55AM, Dec. 16, 2006
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PlayerOne
I mean the REALLY REALLY realistic. Like “Almost a photo”.

apparently you haven't seen superhero comics like Promethea. here's a couple of pages as example:



That is just a example of the many various things that are sold in bookstores and in specialty comic book stores here….. and it's been going on for years.
so do you see how some people might get tired of that if this was the kind of quality work that they were so used to seeing, that they may take it for granted?

But yeah, they shouldn't stun the realistic artworks, that's just silly. They should embrace all forms of artwork, and feel free to experiment with different styles. after all, the last thing they want is to be a one-trick pony….
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Generic Human at 10:10AM, Dec. 16, 2006
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posts: 405
joined: 1-7-2006
I was finishing up the pencils for my hiatus pic for SLTTA during lunch. I picked up my pad of bristol and showed it to my friend who sits across from me and asked her opinion for the propotions.

Well, before she had a chance another friend of mine blurted out “I don't like it.”
I asked, “well, what don't you like about it?” and she replied, “I just don't like it. I hate the way you draw. I only like manga.” Needless to say, I was taken aback. (as you can tell, there are still things wrong with the proportions of her left arm.) Ha, I don't mind critism, but I was hoping to get something more constructive.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:34PM

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