Harkovast- the forum

There are no horses in Harkovast.
harkovast at 3:00PM, Dec. 10, 2008
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The dad of a friend of mine once observed, while playing a fantasy war game, that all the combatants were amazing magical races and yet they rode normal real world horses. He found that this was rather mundane compared to all the elves and goblins and crap.
I happen to agree with his observation, so in Harkovast there are no horses. As the last few strips demonstrate, they ride all sorts of fanciful animals instead.
The Knight was riding a Suss bird, while the three riders coming towards the church are riding Bataks. (There, you now know something people who just read the comic do not know. Well done you.)
Other strange mounts will feature later.
But more then this, I am hoping to have no real world animals in Harkovast (the races resemble real world animals but since they have hands and can talk, they 'aint!) so every animals will be made up.
Watch out for Groblas, Wek-Weks and Histoos as things proceed.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Cthonic Cultist at 3:53PM, Jan. 3, 2009
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Chocobo alert!

The reason that horses are used is because, to my understanding, humans relate best to horses. In real life, elephant, mules, and donkeys are used. You rarely see THOSE either, though elephants make better war mounts. Horses are easier to train than elephants, though, and you can breed them faster, so…

Anyways, the mechanics of horses make them able to move faster for longer than most any other kind of animal that I know of. Wolves and dogs can do similar things, but horses can be ridden and dogs cannot. Unless you are really tiny, and riding something the size of an Irish wolfhound, but even then the bone structure of a dog makes it uncomfortable.

So why make something less recognizable, and less (apparently) realistic?

In your case, it would seem to be artistic expression, but in the case of certain games (chocobo) it would seem that it is easier to make.

That's my opinion.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 5:29PM, Jan. 3, 2009
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I had them ride birds because I remembered the arcade classic Joust (steel those eggs little knight dude!)
I don't see that any of the animals featured so far are inherrantly less realistic then a horse (other then not existing).
Also in a world with no horses, they have to use the best things they have availiable. I am sure a Batak could not win the grand national, but if only other Bataks are in teh race, it suddenly looks a better option.
We don't do a biology lesson on most of the creatures so their exact capacities are never really explained or the reasons for what they can and can't do. To assume horses have an ability a Suss lacks seems a bit presumtious. Suss birds might run a hundred miles an hour due to their remarkable leg construction (they don't, that would be dumb, but I am just saying).

I think recognition factor is a poor reason to do something.
There are hundreds of stories with elves and dwarves riding horses. What is the point of writing one more?

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Cthonic Cultist at 7:40PM, Jan. 3, 2009
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What is the point of not, other than as an objection to doing so?

Also… Birds = food, not riding aminiminalses! I didn't like chocobo in FF because they looked tasty. If your birds don't look tasty, that's fine, but if they do I am more concerned about how good they would be than with how well they ride.

Recognition factor makes people comfortable, which is important at the beginning, to raise fans, you know.

Joust! That was a fun game. I liked it better then Defender. It was easier for one thing, and how often do you get to pop things by landing on their heads? Mario Bros. aside, it is nearly alone in that field!

The assumption on how your animals work is based on earth physics. If a bird could do all that, then there would probably be one on earth already. Assuming it could survive, that is. If it couldn't survive here, why there? I don't know. Anyways, it's your story so do as you like. Just putting my thoughts out there.

People try to find things to make work easier, but why animals? Why not ROBOTS?! OR GOLEMS! Nyahaha! Robots with jet boosters and rocket launchers and chainguns and laser sword shooting eyebeams! Or not. You know. Maybe a clever cart device than puts 90% of a load at an angle to the ground making it so you spend your energy keeping it straight rather than up.

And HORSIES! Horsies > Birds of any type.

Wow. This response went all over the place. Oh well.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 5:46AM, Jan. 4, 2009
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Just because it did not happen on earth does not mean it could not happen.
Remember that in the past all sorts of weird animals (the thunder bird, that was a giant, none flying predator about 20 feet tall? ). So if evolution went down a slightly different path, they might end up in weird places.
As I mentioned, Suss birds might well not be very good compared to a horse, but since horses never evolved on their world, the Suss is the best you get.
Suss birds are considered expensive animals, too valuable to use for manual labour and much too valuable to eat! (like a medieval horse, a precious commodity for warfare). So you would have to control your appetite or get really rich. People in Harkovast would consider eating Suss meat pretty gross, as it is not a food animal to them, but in times of desperation they would resort to it.
Darsai also make a lot of racist jokes implying that the Nymus look like and are sexually attracted to Suss birds.
Nymus consider themselves to look nothing like Suss birds, can't understand why anyone would see a likeness (to them it is like saying a human looks like a horse) and think it is just another sign of Darsai stupidity (Nymus see signs of this every time they examine Darsai culture).

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Cthonic Cultist at 4:43PM, Jan. 4, 2009
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And you'll notice that all those super animals died out. Why? They weren't strong enough, survival of the race wise, to do so.

Anyways, like I said you are the author. Do as you wish, but thanks for the debate.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 5:36PM, Jan. 4, 2009
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That is a false assumption about evolution.
Animals do not evolve to “become better”. Animals millions of years ago were not just crappy animals compared to the ones we have today.
They were very well adapted and got to the top of the food change in their enviroment and in the conditions that created them.
But then conditions change.
Giant sloths were great! Big huge animal no predators, fantastic! Kings of all they surveyed. Then humans came along and wiped them out. In a world without humans giant sloths were great, with humans in, useless. It is not a poorly designed animal, it just happened to be wrong for the new situation.
The opposite is Rats don't dominate the natural world, they only dominate in our cities because they are (by pure luck) well adapted to living alongside us. In the wild, in their natural habitat, they don't dominate in this way all.
Rats are not “better” then giant sloths or dinosaurs, they just happened to have what was required in a changing world. If the world changes again (humans die out for example) other new strange animals will come along and rats may well become redundant (a super rat eating predator for example, that evolves because humans left so many rats behind. Of course then it has no food and dies and is replaced by God knows what else).
Another example- Neandethals were not crappier humans. They were much stupider then us, but they were also stronger and far far tougher. In the ice age conditions they lived in they were much better suited then modern humans. (big and tough to survive the cold, able to fight large animals for food very effectively etc). It was only once the ice subsided, and modern humans came up from africa that it became clear they didn't stand a chance of competing with our superior brain power.
Not to mention natural disaster or some unexpected disease that suddenly takes out a species. That species is not crappier.
Harkovast animals have evolved unique solutions to unique problems. To expect them to come up with the same solutions as our animals is a bit unlikely.

You should read The Red Queen. It is a great book about evolution, and how evolution is not a journey to a destination, like we reach some sort of perfect point.
It is a random and ugly process that has to happen constantly to avoid a species being over taken by parasites and predators, which apparantly is the advantage of sexual rather than asexual reproduction.
The title refers to the Red Queen in alice in wonderland, who says she must run just to stay in place. And that is what evolution is, a constant, unending battle to stay on the treadmill.
Hmmm going a bit off topic there.
But golly evolution is interesting!


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Cthonic Cultist at 8:27PM, Jan. 4, 2009
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Hey, I'm only 17! There is only so much I can be expected to know.

I don't have much to say on evolution, as it is still a relatively new science, and one I don't really have much interest in. The things they discover tend to be neat, but I only know of them from friends who like it.

Animals do not evolve to become better, that is true. They evolve to survive the slow changes, and adapt for the rapid ones. Humans have done well with adapting, and I suspect are also not done evolving. The next stage of humans, assuming we don't die off for one reason or another, should be interesting to see!

Anyways. More on theory of things I don't know so much about, that was.

That is all. Message end.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 5:57AM, Jan. 5, 2009
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The next stage of Human evolution is obvious-
Big talking cats with cool back bending legs and suits of armour.

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confusedsoul at 1:43PM, Jan. 6, 2009
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Hey, I'm only 17! There is only so much I can be expected to know.

I don't have much to say on evolution, as it is still a relatively new science, and one I don't really have much interest in. The things they discover tend to be neat, but I only know of them from friends who like it.

Animals do not evolve to become better, that is true. They evolve to survive the slow changes, and adapt for the rapid ones. Humans have done well with adapting, and I suspect are also not done evolving. The next stage of humans, assuming we don't die off for one reason or another, should be interesting to see!

Anyways. More on theory of things I don't know so much about, that was.

That is all. Message end.

Humans are pretty much done with the evolution of the species. Evolution is a gradual adaptation to changes in the environment to make the species more successful as a whole. Humans no longer need to evolve to adapt to their environment as technology allows them to counteract most of the factors that would negate change. So sorry, but we're stuck the way we are.(Bah.)

Someone
The assumption on how your animals work is based on earth physics. If a bird could do all that, then there would probably be one on earth already. Assuming it could survive, that is. If it couldn't survive here, why there? I don't know. Anyways, it's your story so do as you like. Just putting my thoughts out there.

Well…no. It is a fantasy comic, after all. Science often takes a back seat.

Someone
Also… Birds = food, not riding aminiminalses! I didn't like chocobo in FF because they looked tasty. If your birds don't look tasty, that's fine, but if they do I am more concerned about how good they would be than with how well they ride.

You can eat horses too, you know. Some tribes drink their blood in the desert if they run out of water. Funny, I would have thought it would have made them thirstier.
Sorry, I'm not trying to get at you, but I'm a science girl, me.

Nerd part over, what do Batak's look like from the front? They look like flat footed herbivores, although most evil sides in games and comics I know of prefer to ride carnivores. If I've got a criticism, though, is the pinkness of them. It's not the best natural camoflage ^^;; unless they're really vicious predators.
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Cthonic Cultist at 2:40PM, Jan. 6, 2009
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Part 1: Humans are done evolving

That may be so, but it seems unlikely to me. Would not the fact that we use our intellect a lot make it feasible that the mind will continue improving? We may rely on technology, but how is it made and operated? With the mind. So an advancement in the mind is what I would expect next. The change in the environment is man made rather than natural, in that we don't have to focus on getting our next meal anywhere near as much as we used to, leaving more time to think. That is my reasoning.

Part 2: Science!

Yeah, that's what I meant in the end. If he wants to do something, it gets done. However, he likes having explanations for the way things work which is nice!

Part 3: Birdses are food

Well, you can eat almost ANY animal. Birdses just taste best. I don't think blood has very much salt in it, and what it would have would actually help. You would need the salt to retain the fluids because you are sweating all the time and losing both.

Part 4: Birdses as mounts

How absurd. How do you know that they are ‘evil’? Evil is a string word to use for something that you don't know a LOT about.

As for the birds, they eat kittens and orphans. Duh.

(Not negative, just being silly)

(And I responded before the admin!)
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
confusedsoul at 8:18AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Part 1: Humans are done evolving

That may be so, but it seems unlikely to me. Would not the fact that we use our intellect a lot make it feasible that the mind will continue improving? We may rely on technology, but how is it made and operated? With the mind. So an advancement in the mind is what I would expect next. The change in the environment is man made rather than natural, in that we don't have to focus on getting our next meal anywhere near as much as we used to, leaving more time to think. That is my reasoning.

Part 2: Science!

Yeah, that's what I meant in the end. If he wants to do something, it gets done. However, he likes having explanations for the way things work which is nice!

Part 3: Birdses are food

Well, you can eat almost ANY animal. Birdses just taste best. I don't think blood has very much salt in it, and what it would have would actually help. You would need the salt to retain the fluids because you are sweating all the time and losing both.

Part 4: Birdses as mounts

How absurd. How do you know that they are ‘evil’? Evil is a string word to use for something that you don't know a LOT about.

As for the birds, they eat kittens and orphans. Duh.

(Not negative, just being silly)

(And I responded before the admin!)

Not really, Humans aaren't any more or less intelligent than they were 200 years ago, it's purely through attitudes to technology and learning that have changed. If the same information available now was given to people back then, they would still be able to learn it. Reminds me kind of a bit of a part I read in Jurassic park, about how scientists are only making grand discoveries by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us. We owe everything to other people's discoveries.

Do you know what a good mental evolution would be? Telekinesis. that would be great.

You can always tell who the evil side are, silly! They talk in deep, growly voices and don't wash very often, and don't miss an opportunity to mention how evil they are to people in case they hadn't noticed. (Like in most fantasy games- look at lord of the rings with the orcs. Standard white/black side taking).

I like fish best.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 8:34AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Batak's are pink because I think it looks cool and weird.
More seriously, though they are herbivores they are powerful aggressive animals that dont really have predators once full grown. Also in the wild they move in huge thunderous herds that can't really be hidden at all , so camoflage is not a big consideration for them. I imagine female Batak's are more attracted to brightly coloured males, as it is a sign of good health, putting them on an evolutionairy treadmill towards lurid colours (again, read The Red Queen for more on this).
Don't worry, you get the front of them pretty soon (not that much better to look at then the back really!).

As to ideas of black and white morality, give the story time to develop we will see how those concepts hold up. There are undoubtadly good and evil forces in Harkovast, but there are also a LOT of forces that are harder to categorise. I can't really go into specifics without giving away the plot unfortunately!

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 8:44AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Mrs Harkovast has just informed me that Bataks are “Roan” coloured.
This is apparantly a colour of horses, particularly ones called “flea bitten”.
I know nothing about horses, but Mrs Vast assures me this is the case.

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harkovast at 8:46AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Further Batak news- I should point out that Batak's come in a wide range of colours and shades (note that the two we have seen so far are different colours from each other).
And they smell really bad.

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confusedsoul at 8:58AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Batak's are pink because I think it looks cool and weird.
More seriously, though they are herbivores they are powerful aggressive animals that dont really have predators once full grown. Also in the wild they move in huge thunderous herds that can't really be hidden at all , so camoflage is not a big consideration for them. I imagine female Batak's are more attracted to brightly coloured males, as it is a sign of good health, putting them on an evolutionairy treadmill towards lurid colours (again, read The Red Queen for more on this).
Don't worry, you get the front of them pretty soon (not that much better to look at then the back really!).

As to ideas of black and white morality, give the story time to develop we will see how those concepts hold up. There are undoubtadly good and evil forces in Harkovast, but there are also a LOT of forces that are harder to categorise. I can't really go into specifics without giving away the plot unfortunately!

Like male birds with their displays? I hadn't considered warning colours, I normally think of lizards and bugs for that category, so I suppose that I too am adding too much of a degree of logicality(? is that a word? sounds good though) and scientific reasoning to a fantasy comic.

Roan, roan… I'm not a horse person, I only know that some people call white horses grey. Even though they're obviously white!
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harkovast at 9:05AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Confused soul, yes birds are what I was thinking of as the real world equivilant.
There are species of bird that have males with hanging down feathers on their necks so long that it makes it harder for them to fly.
But since the females favour the long neck feather ones, they are the ones that breed most so the feathers only get longer.

Harkovast is not going to be scientifically perfect (it is just me making it up) but I like to think it can stand up to reasonable examination.
Don't feel bad demanding explanations for things, I like that people are paying enough attention to spot stuff.

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Cthonic Cultist at 11:49AM, Jan. 8, 2009
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confusedsoul
Not really, Humans aaren't any more or less intelligent than they were 200 years ago, it's purely through attitudes to technology and learning that have changed. If the same information available now was given to people back then, they would still be able to learn it. Reminds me kind of a bit of a part I read in Jurassic park, about how scientists are only making grand discoveries by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us. We owe everything to other people's discoveries.

Do you know what a good mental evolution would be? Telekinesis. that would be great.

You can always tell who the evil side are, silly! They talk in deep, growly voices and don't wash very often, and don't miss an opportunity to mention how evil they are to people in case they hadn't noticed. (Like in most fantasy games- look at lord of the rings with the orcs. Standard white/black side taking).

I like fish best.

I didn't mean to say that we are smarter than we were at the beginning of our race, merely that we use a certain portion of it more. The brain-meats, that is, as a lot of what we do is much more complex than hunting deer with a stick, thus leading to the development of said region. Of course, that does not apply to everyone.

I think that eventually we will have two distinct races of humans. The ones with super amazing mind powers, and the drooling idiots who we will have do our manual labor. That will be amazing!

Well, some evil is better at hiding. My quote is not an example of this. NYAHAHA!

Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
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harkovast at 3:09PM, Jan. 8, 2009
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You mean something a bit like in The Time Machine?
(The book, not any of the silly movies. The book rocks!)

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Cthonic Cultist at 3:41PM, Jan. 8, 2009
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Kind of. The humans would be FAR below normal intelligence, though. Not able to form words, just stare at the pretty lights on the TV screen, after working for the greater humans.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
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harkovast at 2:00PM, Feb. 5, 2009
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Some would argue we are pretty close to what you describe already….

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Cthonic Cultist at 8:24PM, Feb. 5, 2009
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Not all humans! There are a few, a very few, that are very, VERY smart. They can do some amazing things, and should be the basis for the top caste. Then you have those with good technical skills, or above average intelligence, they're the managers of the lowest caste, the braindead drones. That sounds like a SUPER PERFECT world to me.
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
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harkovast at 6:36AM, Feb. 6, 2009
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It sounds great, but I have this sinking feeling about which caste I would end up in. Does the upper caste need many web comic writers?

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Cthonic Cultist at 7:42AM, Feb. 7, 2009
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Only if you can make them not think. It's all they do all day, so for entertainment they have periods of non-thinking. Can you make boring comics?
Boring and talentless I am.. At least I am occasionally insightful, maybe?
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RED_NED at 6:56AM, Feb. 8, 2009
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Can you make boring comics?

Haha, you can't give me free ammo like that :P
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DuckInspector at 8:59AM, March 6, 2009
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Well…no. It is a fantasy comic, after all. Science often takes a back seat.

Yeah science…sit down and SHUT UP!
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Snowhunter at 11:21AM, April 24, 2009
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I'm currently ignoring the idea of a separated human society.

I thought I should mention that there are breeds of horses that are for meat alone. You have to go to Europe to find it. The French eat horse meat, but they also eat snails and frogs so there's no accounting for their taste.

I was also thinking about the evolotion for your riding animals. They evolved differently so their could be any number of different beasts of burden. Just as you could argue the breeding of dogs until you got something with a better back and gait for riding, your peolpes could have discovered various animals that were big enough for riding and bred them to be stronger mounts. Are there going to be other creature like lizards?
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harkovast at 1:29PM, April 24, 2009
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Snowhunter if you take a look in the page with a Heretic and the page where Chen-Chen explains how the hundred Nameless captured her, you can see a creature called a histoo, which is a large riding lizard, commonly used by the Tsung-Dao.

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D_Dude at 5:22AM, June 30, 2011
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*D_Dude casts Thread Necromancy*
Is there a rundown of the various mounts and beasts of burden?

I know of the noble Suss bird, the histoo and the bataks.
FEAR THE BADGER!
It's not overkill if you don't hit him.
Sir! We are surrounded! … Good. Then we can charge in EVERY direction.
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harkovast at 6:16AM, June 30, 2011
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You got it-
Suss Birds- Large, two legged flightless birds.
The noble mounts used by most cavalry forces. Brave, intelligent and fierce, they are ideal mounts for a combatant. They are very valuable and dont get used as beasts of burden, only as beasts of war.


Histoo- Large, four legged lizards.
Faster then a Suss bird but more timid and less intelligent. Being cold blooded, they only really function well in a warm climate, so their use is not very wide spread. The are mostly used in the Tsung-Dao lands and western areas of the Darsai Kingdom. Some Tsung-Dao samurai ride them into battle, as they are a cheaper alternative to a Suss bird. In this role they work better is you are planning to ride around your enemy firing arrows than rushing right at him.

Hanup- Large, two legged rodents with big ears
Slower and more timid than a Suss bird, Hanups are useful as a relatively cheap beast of burden.
They are cheap to feed, and can survive almost anywhere, so they do see use as mounts for war in Jaydia (where they can whether the desert conditions very well) and in the Elsum home islands (Suss birds there have to be expensively imported and need a lot of care to survive the cold weather.)
But no one is in any doubt, that the Suss is in all ways a surperior mount on the field of battle than the lowly Hanup.

Batak- Very large, bulkly hairly creatures with horns nad long necks. Somewhere between a cow and a rhino.
Bataks are not widely used as mounts, being wild and hard to control.
The only successful efforts to semi-domesticate them were made in the West before the rise of The KITW, and are still used by Nameless riders in battle.
They are very hard to control, often throwing off, goring or trampling their riders. They are also slower than a suss bird or Hanup and quick to tire due to their great size.
However, they are incredibly strong, aggressive and the charge of armoured Nameless Knights mounted on Bataks is utterly devastating. No force of cavalry or line of infantry could stand against their charge in the First Nameless War.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM

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