Random Nonsense

Ultramarines -A grim review.
harkovast at 10:20AM, May 15, 2011
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In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

So goes the tag line for Warhammer 40 Thousand, a table top model game by Games Workshop.
It tells the story of a future that is dark, grim, violent, dark, gothic, grim and above all dark (and grim.)
The most iconic symbol of this game is the Space Marines. These genetically enhanced super humans walk around in giant suits of armour with bigger shoulder pads than a power dressing 80's business woman and dole out righteous death onto aliens, heretics and mutants (and they have a pretty slim definition for what doesn't count as one of these three groups.)

The popularity of the games setting inevitably led to its characters and imagery leaking into other genres.
This unfortunately, led to the movie Ultramarines.

This film is entirely rendered in CGI, which is a point against it from the start. But this is no ordinary CGI, this is unbelievably shit CGI.
The characters all look approximately 200 years old and have as much ability to show expression and emote as the keyboard I am typing this on.
But the main problem this movie runs into (and it has a lot of problems, believe me) is that the very source material is simply not suited to making a movie.
Now I am sure a load of 40K fans are about to burn me for heresy, but allow me to explain.
Space Marines are dogmatic, brainwashed space fascists who kill anyone who does not agree with their world view and religion.
They don't ever take time off from fighting and training…ever.
When they fight battles they are not dreaming about the girl back home. They live in weird, sexless monasteries with just other men who do nothing but train and pray all the time.
Now one could emphasise with these guys!
Its like making a movie about the brown imps from Doom. Yeah, Doom was cool and I liked blasting at those imps…but they are not exactly compelling characters from a story telling point of view!
They are not like people. They don't do the stuff normal people do…ever!
Perhaps you could do a story of a space marine trying to rebel against the evil system that controls him and rediscover his humanity. But that wont EVER happen because these guys are the biggest money spinner for Games Workshop and so can only ever be portrayed in the most two dimensional, boring way possible.
So who are our characters?
A bunch of these powered armoured wankers.
There is the captain, the old medic guy no one likes and the main character who is called Proteus.
This is another one of those occasions where is might seem like I am selling the film short by not explaining it properly, but this is seriously as much characterisation as any of these fuckers get. One of them has a flame thrower…does that count as a personality?
The shitty characters become even more pointless as when they actually go on their mission they all wear their all covering power armour.
The problem here is that this means all the characters look identical!
Imagine if in Star Wars all the good guys dressed in all covering Storm Trooper uniforms for 90% of the movie.
All covering, identical uniforms are what you give the faceless bad guy minions…NOT THE HEROES!
Their suits of armour are even the same colour! These blue bastards are faceless, have no personality and are impossible to relate to.
In the same way that the Space Marines organisation and nature worked well for a game but fails for a movie, the same problem occurs with their equipment.
The sad reality is this-
When you scale Space Marines up to full size and actually have them moving around…. they look silly.
Their guns are laughably enormous, like the Space Marines go into battle using super soakers. Their armour is so bulky that its hard to believe they can move in it. In the film the Space Marines are tremendously agile, giving no sense of weight or substance to their armour. This gives the feeling that the armour is made of light weight plastic. Instead of battle armour, they feeling like children's costumes. Even when they put on their helmets, it feels wrong. The armour doesn't seal together, or making a hissing sound when you open it or any other cool stuff. They just plonk the helmet on…like it is an empty plastic toy helmet.
Also, rather amusingly, the armour never actually helps. These suckers all die one hit like the losers they are. Shots even go right through them and blast out the other side of the armour! Why do they wear this junk? It never saves anyone's life, ever! It both feels and acts like plastic!

So what do our heroes do all day?
They walk.
They walk a long way.
Slowly.
Fifty percent of this film (no exaggeration) is just these guys wondering through an empty, blank, featureless wilderness.
Initially I was thinking someone must be watching them, about to attack. I was wrong.
There is no tension, no threat.
Just the Space Marines walking.
They don't really talk (what the fuck do these guys have to talk about? Killing? Praying? Hating stuff? Maybe its better they seem quiet to avoid sounding like even bigger assholes), they just walk.
When the bad guys appear (bad guys about who we learn nothing about in the movie), three of them attack the heroes and are killed.
It was at this point that I began to realise that in the far future there is only war…mainly because everyone is so INCREDIBLY bad at fighting!
I mean these fuckers just suck at it!
The heroes have a squad of ten men, one of whom, carries the flag.
That's right, during the battles the holds a large banner with both hands. Yes, during gun fights!
The space marines stand around in the open, not seeking cover or trying to conceal themselves, all the while in their brightly coloured “armour”.
These are tactics that make sense if you and the other side are only armed with muskets and there are several hundred guys a side.
Ten man squads with high tech weapons?
NO! That is fucking retarded!
After the initial fight our heroes stop to do rituals for their dead. At this point I was thinking “Are they insane?”
The guys that attacked them will surely have called for help and armies of them will be on the way.
But it turns out that the bad guys are just as dumb as our heroes.
So after doing their rituals, the heroes set off again….for more walking.
WHAT THE FUCK?
This is so god damn boring it blows my mind.
There is nothing here I care about, nothing that makes sense, nothing that holds my interest.
The movie left me drained and tired.
It would put you off anything 40k, Space Marine or Games Workshop related.
It is like an anti-advert!
But from what I have seen the mindless GW fan boys loved this hunk of nob cheese, apparently demanding nothing more then space marines and some infrequently, poorly staged battle scenes.
The shows not even true to the game (giving people magic powers they don't have in game, making their armour not do anything etc) so an actual fan should be pissed off by the inaccuracies!
It is a sad statement on Games Workshop fans that so many of them seemed actually pleased to be fed such bullshit.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only total wank.


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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Canuovea at 11:08AM, May 15, 2011
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How did you get your hands on that? I thought they were only ordered from online then delivered. Wait… did you actually order it? Wow, what did you expect?

Okay, I'm fairly certain that you must have missed some of the plot here. You never mention the Imperial Fists Space Marines, for example. They are supposed to be in there too, and with Bright Yellow armour. Though I haven't seen the movie. But it sounds like the standard plot line for things Space Marine. Except the Ultramarines book series, those were decent. Run in, kill things, think about it, kill more things, win. And Chaos doesn't do Eldar sneaky all that well.

Second, how the hell do you do live action Space Marines? The only option is CGI. Tight budget plus CGI = … well, what did you expect?

Third, I guess it sounds like they did the Space Marines fairly well. I mean, the armour is supposed to allow them to be all ninja. They don't need cover too, most of the time, that's the point of the armour. But sounds like they really screwed up on making it appear effective. A bolter round going through armour? Yeah, I know it's explosive but… no. Shouldn't happen that easily.

Fourth, the movie is for fans of the game(s) and doesn't work as a kind of advertisement. It was order only for crying out loud! Of course things aren't going to get explained…

Overall, sounds like the Dawn of War video game series had a better plot… well, it was pretty good story for a video game I thought.

But I disagree with the source material not having movie potential. Chaos Marines and Space Marines killing each other is somewhat generic, but read “Nightbringer” from the Ultramarines book series. I'd love to see that in film. Its got dark Eldar in it. And rebels. And, well, something that can showcase the Space Marines, but also have other compelling characters. If there is potential for decent books, then there is potential for decent movies. At least most of the good guys were British.

I will reserve judgment on the film for until after I see it. Some movies you just have to be in the right mood to enjoy. This one sounds like something I would watch if I was not looking for depth and just wanted to see things get killed. Other movies are just so shit that you cannot enjoy them no matter what. Eregon, for example, or… I couldn't get past the first 5 minutes of Twilight.

Yes, I tried to watch Twilight. Why? I feel if one is going to criticize something they should at least watch/read it. And Twilight bashing is so… fun. Blood drinking supernatural sparklies who go crazy at the… scent? is it scent of blood? Well, apparently nobody at that high school the 100+ year old things attend (for whatever reason) ever gets their period. See there I go again.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 4:05PM, May 15, 2011
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A friend of mine got it.
I watched it.
I then proceeded to regret watching it.

Yes there were two Imperial Fist characters. One of them never spoke till near the end and thus was just a blank guy in yellow armour while the other was a chaplain.
He had a cool skull helmet and anachronistic psychic powers that chaplains shouldn't have. But I suppose I will give credit for the fact I could tell who he was.
But despite the fact that they come from a different planet and one would imagine they would be culturually very different from the ultra marines, no they are identical other than yellow armour (and a name that makes me chuckle. “The forces of chaos are going to get an imperial fisting!”) They might as well have been another group of Ultra marines (In fact that would have made more sense, why don the imperial fist deal with their own problems?)


The voice actors for this film were pretty top notch… on paper.
But those involved all put in the WORST readings imaginable.
There was a bit where the medic gave a speech and I found myself thinking “was that REALLY the best reading you could get?”
Shockingly it turned out the voice actor was esteemed British actor Donald Sumpter!
If Donald Sumpter couldn't be arsed to make the effort, why the hell should I?

Yes, there were British good guys, but that is more dodging a problem then having a plus point.

Want more break down of the story?
Here ya go.
A company of imperial fists were guardinga chapel and they stoppped sending back communications so a squad of Ultra marines are sent in investigate.
Yes, a whole company have suddenly gone missing so we send ten guys…one of whome is busy holding the flag!
Further proof that in the future everyone is a retard!
There is no reason given for why I should care about this chapel or why it will make any difference one way or the other.
There is nothing at state, taking this place wont win the war or turn the tide or save the imperium or save ANYTHING!
Nothing is at stake here.

The bad guys get no development. Other than being evil we never get any idea why they do what they do or what their point of view is.
The chaos marines never even getting any fucking dialog. They have a demon that talks, but that seems to also be separate from the chaos marines as it doesn't cooperate with them in anyway and kills a lot of them to further its plans.
Also there is a massive plot hole in that it never addresses how the forces of chaos GOT to the planet. The ultramarines have a ship to get there…how did the bad guys get there? They don't come from the planet, so they must have got there some how. The Ultramarines never even question where the enemy came from, or do anything to ensure that all of the enemy are dead…they just go to the monastry, recover the two Imperial Fist marines they find there and then leave.
Once again proving that future people are retards.

Yeah you can say this one is just for the fans but I own over a hundred Space Marine models (The Forth Company of the Panther Claws Chapter! I won a tank in a design a chapter contest for those guys) so I should be the target audience!
This left me bored to tears!
I was so tired and worn out after this film that I couldn't bare to look at a space marine!
You could use this as a cure for people who play too much 40K!



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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
wordweaver_four at 3:14PM, May 17, 2011
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In the future you have huge bulky armor that somehow makes you a ninja, massive sidearms, and a flag, but no jeeps? No helicopters?

Why the hell did they have to walk there?

They have spaceships right? They don't have some sort of puddle-jumping shuttlecraft?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 4:08PM, May 17, 2011
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They have one floaty speeder thing that looks like a flying brick.
Seriously, looks a like they made it from lego.
It can only carry two guys, so it scouts while everyone else has to walk.
They find stuff while walking at one point…and call over the guys in the vehicle to look at it. Great scouting skills retards.
The ones in the flier get shot by a sniper (their helmets offering no protection and their goofy vehicle is open topped…) and then they just leave the thing behind.
Space marines are humanities finest…retards.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
wordweaver_four at 3:08AM, May 19, 2011
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I just watched the trailer for it.

It looks like the opening animation on a video game. A ten year old video game.

The flag thing is just really over the top weird. Flags were traditionally used in military for signaling and keeping track of troop movement on the battlefield. Once the radio gained favor in the early to mid 20th century the flag was largely abandoned. Although many militaries still train in the use of flag signaling, most notably the navy. Probably because naval flag signals are largely universal, so it avoids language barriers in ship to ship communications. Still, a lot of the archaic communication systems that continue to live on in militaries (bugling, drumming, Morse code, flags,) probably do so more out of tradition then because of any use they may be. In a modern military it would be foolish to issue a soldier a flag, bugle or drum instead of a rifle in wartime.

Ha! So I'm watching this movie on youtube, and one of the guys says: “War isn't about glory, war is about victory!”

Aren't you guys in like this endless war? What the fuck do you know about victory?

When they have their helmets off it looks like everyone is wearing a rubber mask over their real face. The way it moves is so unnatural.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 3:26AM, May 19, 2011
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The whole endless war thing is yet another element that works well in a war game but sucks in a movie.
The war is endless, there is no hope of ending it in any way or really making any significant impact on its out come.
So why should we care?
In a thousand years these will still be fighting in the exact saem way (probably carrying the exact saem goofy flags) and nothing will have been gained or lost.

I was really rolling my eyes when space marines are talking about how bad war is and how “oh you don't know how horrible it is yet!”
Space Marines are bred for comabt, that is literally all they do.
If it was not for combat they would just bhe sat with their power armoured thumbs up their butts.
I find it hard to believe these guys become meloncolly about violence!
If you were creating these brain washed facists, making them eager and happy to kill (and die) would be the FIRST thing you would give them.
More so then power armour or big muscles and guns, a cheerful enjoyment of battle and killing would be essential for making your super soldiers.
This of course would make them impossible to relate to…but they ARE impossible to relate to! The only way to have them be relatable is to have them not behave like Space Marines, and then what is the point?

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Genejoke at 9:11AM, May 19, 2011
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I thought the voice acting was okay, but for the talent involved not excellent.
I have to admit every time I have tried to watch it I have just ended up making comics and scarcely paying attention.

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Genejoke at 9:25AM, May 19, 2011
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Someone
Aren't you guys in like this endless war? What the fuck do you know about victory?

made me chuckle.

You could make a decent film or series from the source material but having space marines as the focus would make it tough, they should be seen as a distant elite and actually combat capable.

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 10:23AM, May 19, 2011
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Genejoke I am not sure between wordweavers thouhts on endless war and Red Neds comments on CGI giant squid as my favourite thing someone has said on the forum today.

What would have been good would have been if the marine had said something like-
“War is not about glory, its about victory, which is glorious, and thats what its all about…wait a minute, let me start over.”

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
wordweaver_four at 3:08AM, May 20, 2011
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harkovast
The whole endless war thing is yet another element that works well in a war game but sucks in a movie.

I don't know if I could enjoy a war game. The idea of doing nothing but fighting battles in a universe that does nothing but fight the same war forever would be frustrating to me. There would never be a sense of accomplishment. Your goal in war is to win the war, but if the parameters of the game make winning impossible, what's the point in playing?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 5:09AM, May 20, 2011
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While overall there is never ending conflict, you can win specific battles and wars.
Like the war for a particular planet or system could be won, even though the other side has not been wiped out and will continue to fight elsewhere/come back to fight another day.
Its more an excuse to keep everyone buying models and rule books, than a narrative!

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
dwrean at 7:03PM, June 15, 2011
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actually, from my limited point of understanding of the warhammer 40k universe, it will end.
with the emperors faithful dead in a ditch.
think about it, between three factions, S.O.B, imperial guard, and space marine, who like to call each other heretics from time to time, and kill each other, and our human worlds oft being the center of attention, usually leading to thousands, millions, billions, being killed in the process, the human aspect is already botched.

now, add a TIDE of green hulks, whose technology literally works around the idea that it SHOULD, not necessarily CAN, work, and whose numbers and strength is so great that if the creators didnt add the fact that they'll kill each other just to be strongest, all before them would be conquered.

now, add a swarm of giant space bugs, who can strip a planet to the core like a mass of locusts, which know no division amongst its number and focus upon a single goal, feed.

now, add the eldars, dark and… not so much, who either bind themselves to pure logic over emotion or vice versa with an edge of depravity, who come at them with technology, speed, and lethal efficiency that comes with the boost of some of the strongest psykers there can be.

now, add their mortal enemies, the souless necrons, who are the most likeable race there is since they dont spout about bullcrap, they just zap you and rip you to pieces with their bare metal hands and feed your soul to the epitome of death.

now add the most recent tau, whose technology is ingenious and gives every man willing a whiff of the ole plasma, who, instead of wiping out everything that thinks and therefore is, they incorporate the strengths of a variety of aliens bound together by the common goal of the greater good.

oh, and lets not forget, your very own brothers have turned against you, joined the legions of daemons, corrupt and undermine your efforts, oh, and lets not forget, never actually DIE as you send them and every OTHER person who doesnt meet your quality standards in the warp.

in short…
boned.
learn2make friends human n00bz.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Canuovea at 7:57PM, June 15, 2011
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Potential “Good Guys”
Humans: Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition
Eldar: Harlequins and Craftworld Eldar
Tau: Greater Good Fools!
Whatever happened to the Squats? (Virus bomb?)

Could go either way:
Eldar: Dark. Hell, they'll work for you if you pay them enough.
Orks: Like to kill stuff, promise them money and a good fight…
Chaos? I mean, maybe? Tzeench?

Utterly smacking kill the hell outta anything
Chaos? Eh, who knows?
Tyranids: eat the hell outta everything
Necrons: Evil C'tan things taking over Galaxy

Miscellaneous:
The Old Ones: I'm still convinced the lizardy bastards have something to do with the Tyranids. Something as aggressive and capable as those “bugs” isn't natural.
Those guys who fought Horus to a standstill and had the weapon that wounded Horus stolen from them: May be dead, may be alive.

Here's the layout: Tau, Humans, and Eldar may work with each other in the short run, maybe even the long run if things get desperate. Even Dark Eldar have been known to help out other Eldar from time to time.

If things get bad enough even Chaos might help out. I mean, Necrons and Tyranids are bad news for everyone.

Necron and Tyranids don't work with anyone. They work by themselves against everyone.

Who are the greatest threat to all sentient life? Necrons and Tyranids. Even Chaos wouldn't necessarily kill everyone in the Galaxy. Hell, Nurgle and Slaanesh, maybe even Tzeench can be seen as bearable. Khorne not so much…

So, I think that if the possible “good guys” worked together they might have a chance. But divided it will end badly for them. Or the Emperor could come back. That might fix things up for the humans. But boy oh boy would that be bad for the Church. Empy boy hated organized religion. In fact, the Word Bearer legion started the cult of the Emperor and he reprimanded them for it! And that's why they went to Chaos.

Good news? The Necrons might start killing each other. For good. Bad news? The C'tan that wins is even more powerful. Personally, I want to see the Deceiver get eaten by someone. I hate that little worm!

So, things aren't as bleak as they could be, but still pretty bleak. Basically, as long as the Necrons and Tyranids don't win, then meaningful sentient life will continue to exist. Even the orks kinda count there. Orks might kill off all the humans if they win, but not so likely. Eldar? Probably not. Tau? No, they'd keep them around. And Chaos still has humans in it…
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
dwrean at 1:32PM, June 16, 2011
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the squat were killed off by gameworkshop for not doing dwarfs justice. game workshop's weapon of choice? tyranid swarm eating their home planets, reducing their number to isolated groups.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 4:32PM, June 16, 2011
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The squats are hard to deal with.
The best you can do is just sit on the toilet and wait it out.
Eat less curry is the best way to prevent them before hand.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Renard at 5:03PM, June 16, 2011
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Part of the problem with movies based on video games is that while they usually are visually impressive (sounds like this ones was complete shite though) they tend to lack everywhere else.

If they make it for the fans who already know the game universe then people unfamiliar will be probably be turned off because they don't know what's going on.

If they make it to attract new people then the hardcore fans will be pissed because the story isn't exactly like it was in the game, they added new characters or removed some, they changed something about the characters or the enemies, any change is inexcusable to them. Besides, they usually simplify the story to appeal to the newcomers as well, but they either end up making it too simple and thus stupid, or else the audience knows that it was simplified for them, and people don't like that either. So nobody wins.

OR they try to find the middle ground and still piss everyone off for a combination of the above reasons, so again no one wins!

And if a soldier is bloody huge physically, he tends to tire faster from hauling his own weight around, add in the weight of his comically over-sized futuristic gun and he'll be sucking air in no time. That's where powered armor comes in. And speaking from experience I can tell you that a machine built to more heavy loads doesn't like high speeds. And if you can't move your armored ass faster than greased lightning then even old anti-tank weapons should frighten you.

Enjoy this video of a Russian T-72 (built with pretty solid armor in the day) getting blown up by a 280mp/h TOW exploding above it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMxZ34Ptco


You know what's scarier than big armor? Gas masks. Russian ones. Why? Because it begs the question, "Why the fuck does that guy shooting at me need a gas mask, what does he know that I don't? And if he takes it off, will there be a face, or a smaller, uglier gas mask under it?"

Case in point: http://renard47.deviantart.com/art/The-Stalker-Take-2-202473189

Sweat save blood, blood saves lives, and brains save both. -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Canuovea at 10:40AM, June 17, 2011
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Renard, that whole thing about the gasmasks? Thats why the Death Korps of Krieg (Imperial Guard regiment) are freaky. They never take their masks off, and you can't really know for sure if they actually look human…

Space Marine armour is futury. As such, it can move at high speeds! I still think the humans are rather unsympathetic most of the time though.

But I think your point about video game adaptations is spot on. Hard to please everyone. Or, if you do please one group you lose money by ignoring everyone else. Money or accuracy?

Boom. No more tank.

Boomy boom-boom.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 1:07PM, June 17, 2011
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Haha, that tank destruction was completely fucking awesome!
If they had done stuff like that in the Ultramarines movie, I would have been a lot more enthusiastic!

Gas masks are indeed scary and evil looking.
The facelessness of the mask, the large, empty eyes giving a skull like appearance, the implications of poison and death in the air.
Altogether very sinister.
This is why The Banshee in Harkovast wears one.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
Renard at 4:09PM, June 17, 2011
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I looked up that Death Korps. Definite points for the Reichsheer style uniforms and old-school gas masks. I've got a serious thing for jackboots and greatcoats though, and I have an old stahlhelm sitting around somewhere, so it's pretty much a given.

500 years of continuous fighting on a radioactive, bomb scorched wasteland? That's pretty hardcore. They'd need access to facilities for growing food and keeping livestock in order to survive that long, and factories to produce war material, but since it's the future I can assume they use laser weapons, so bullets and propellant powder aren't a concern. Still, I read a novel a while back where people were living in the Moscow underground, and despite raiding trips to the surface bringing scrap, fuel, and munitions, and food being grown underground, people didn't expect that mankind would survive the next half-century, let alone long enough to take back the Earth. Scary thing is, that's pretty much the truth, so these space Germans would have to adapt and evolve, or die off within a couple of generations.

P.S. In my mind a gas mask with smaller lenses is even more unsettling, like my PBF mask in the link. It's even harder to see the wearer's eyes, and what's great about the older style Eastern Bloc masks is the full rubber construction; no mammal is supposed to have a shiny, rubbery, deformed head and little beady, unblinking black eyes. Things like that should stay where they belong, in the depths of the ocean, chilling with Cthulu, or in the center of the Goddamned Earth.

Wait, what's this Banshee you're talking about? I'm going to assume it's one of the 14 Evils.
Sweat save blood, blood saves lives, and brains save both. -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 12:18AM, June 18, 2011
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The Death Korp are hard core bad asses, no doubt about it!
The models are ludicrously expensive (more so then regular gamesworkshop ones, you have to order them from Forge World) but are soooo tempting!
Worse yet, you would need hundreds of the exspensive little bastards as Imperial Guard are a horde army that die like flies.
But soooo tempting!

If I was rich, they are the kind of thing I would buy loads of, just cause they look awesome.

I think it turns out they are all secretly clones, which is how come they can field massive armies despite their planet being nuked to buggery and how come they always wear the masks (so people dont notice how many of them look the same!) Cloning is not allowed in the Imperium (just like almost everything else except praying and war) but the Imperium is so vast, corrupt and mismanaged that I am sure those that do know about the Death Korp are happy to turn a blind eye in order to get millions more gas mask wearing psychos out there into the fight.

But it should be noted…I dont think the Death Korp would make good protagonists in a movie! See? I can think people are awesome but not want a movie with them as the heroes, why can't Space Marine fans do the same?

As for The Banshee….heheh, I love to throw those kind of little bits of info out there without explanation. Always makes me chuckle.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
RED_NED at 2:13AM, June 18, 2011
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I'm a tight ass so I'd buy some cheapo cadian plastic guys and stick some Pig Iron metal heads on em :P
http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image_additional&pID=15&pic=0&products_image_large_additional=images/large/pi_prod_HD 10_LRG.jpg

I like how cloning isnt allowed in the Imperium, when I thought the primarchs were all clones of the emperor and the gene seeds of space marines were cloned from the primarchs? But then again, corruption in the fine imperium?! Never!

Death Korp of krieg are like the steriotypical baddies in a film - faceless goons, with skull masks no less? Man, it sounds like a bad (or good?) 80's budget sci fi!

Oh and the Banshee is a Scream!



..

*dies*
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 3:16AM, June 18, 2011
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How…how much are those Death Korp heads?
Kinda getting my interest…
£4.50 for 20?
That's pretty good…
Fuck, must resist!
I am going to get sucked back into fucking GW again!
I need to repeat 20 times “40K rules are poorly balanced, overly complicated and fundamentally flawed” until these urges go away.

I could aways write my own rules….
FUCK!
Don't tempt me, Frodo…Sorry, I mean Red_Ned!

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RED_NED at 4:19AM, June 18, 2011
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Haha, yeah those heads are great bang for your buck. The are a good size too (I was worried they'd be a bit small)
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/1/13/15766_md-28mm,%20Games%20Workshop,%20Greatcoat,%20Imperial%20Guard,%20Infantry,%20Pig%20Iron,%20Warhammer%2040,000.jpg

I played 40k on wednesday and im going to play again today and the rules are making my brain bleed. So much faff and special rules (maybe its just eldar and the fact their units have about 4 special rules each…)

Ive actually working on some new rules which takes cues from the Warmaster, Epic and Uncharted Seas games plus the best bits of 40k. IGO, UGO rules systems can GOFUCKOFF!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 4:38AM, June 18, 2011
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Some of the basic principles of that WW2 game we played might be woth while.
I like the idea of weapons having an anti infantry and anti armour score.

I dont like laying down templates (faffy.)

I want troops to be either in cover or not in cover, I dont want to have to keep track of exactly how much of them is visible, so I am fiddling about trying to balance the models on ledges and stuff. If I want to do that I will play necromunda (which I wont do, because necromunda is just as flawed!)
They can have cover from some directions and not others, but it should be pretty clear cut.

Some kind of roll to hit then the defender rolls to see if they survive (so they get to feel involved.)
I was thinking for normal troops when they get hit the roll will be 1-2 knocked over or fall back (some kind of none crippling effect), 3-4 badly hurt, 5-6 dead.

For more armoured troops and better weapons it can increase or decrease the chances of certain results and then bad ass guys like space marines or otehr big armoured gits could ignore the 1-2 result, as that would be a cool way to show that they just keep striding forward when lesser men would be knocked flat.

Just a few thoughts there.

And the Ultramarine movie was crap (see how I cleverly brought things back on topic?)

Alternating unit moves between players is a must. The entire army firing before the enemy gets a turn to fire is just too bonkers.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
RED_NED at 7:18AM, June 18, 2011
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The Ultramarines film was long and boring.

Much like the game of 40k I just played! I nearly cried when my opponent fired 10 Fire Dragons at my tank (rolling seperately for his Exarch of course) Then proceeded to roll 2D6 each for armour penetration - meaning he had to roll them seperately.

Oh and he could re-roll failed penetrations (ooh err missus!). Then he rolled to see what the penetrations did. 50 or so dice rolls later my tank was dead and so was my enthusiasm :(

Yeah I was thinking on the lines of the Secrets Of The Third Reich rules as a good basis too, it had some interesting ideas.

The flesh wound style system can be replaced by putting saving throws back in, with some guns having save modifiers. the AP system of 40k is ok but a bit too swingy. I think face down injured guys would nerf assaulty units and be a bit faffy.

Ive got a basic system of some weapons being anti-tank and some anti-troop (like epic) and all vehicles having a wound score and a saving throw so they are just like a unit of troops. So a melta gun would have say 3 anti tank shots, and a flamer would have 3 anti troop shots (no bloody templates!)

The 40k cover system is quite good actually, if its only some models out of cover you either fire at all the unit in cover, or only fire at the ones out of cover. Its pretty easy. I'd just make cover give them a -1 to hit you. No big elaborate rules.

Oh and I'd put pinning units in as a big thing, where units are less likely to run away and more likely to be pinned making a suppression aspect to the game which should work better with alternating activations.

But enough of this nerdy games rules waffle!

Ultramarines was as bad as the game system it is based off, and whoever made it should carry a stupid flag and then commit suicide. The twat.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 7:59AM, June 18, 2011
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With face down models, I have a few thoughts on how that could work.
Face down models move at the same speed as the rest of the unit (their comrades help them along) but if a unit contains any face downers then its overall speed is reduced. If they move 6inches you could knock off two inches.
This would represent that injured guys are being carried or are walking wounded.
You could then put in a rule for some sides like evil dark eldar where they can choose to abandon their wounded (removing them as casualties) in order to keep their full move allowance.

For the lowest level of injury I was thinking you could put a token next to the unit each time this happens to represent them being suppressed.
The amount of shots the unit can take is reduced by 1 for each counter. Then you can use characters to reduce the affect of coutners (veteran seargent removes one before the unit acts) and bad ass guys like space marines would just completely ignore supression.

I am coming round to a damage rolly system then involves face down wounded guys. I can see it working.
Playtesting is required!

Oh almost forgot- Ultra marines was dreadful! (phew!)


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RED_NED at 8:27AM, June 18, 2011
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The Necromunda style injury system can work, and face-down models is a good way to do ‘markers’.
The main kink that would need ironing out is that as it stands, only 1/3rd of the people shot die. It might be hard to differentiate between really light troops like gretchin and armoured ones like terminators, battlesuits and wraithguard - if it takes a lot of effort to attack tough guys, and a third of the time they dont die it might lead to ignoring them in preference of other things. This is speaking after a game vs eldar where all he had left was 6 tanks because they are unkillable. I barely targetted them all game and wiped out everything else instead.

You could fiddle around with incorporating it into a saving throw? So if you equal your save then you take a flesh wound, beat it you are ok and get 1 less and you are man down, 2 less and you die:
So a 4+ save would be:
1-2 – dead
3 – man down
4 - flesh wound
5-6 – no damage

After playing for the first time in ages, buckets of dice get thrown about in 40k. Lots of armies have units of 20-30 models as standard, I don't want to get too bogged down as to which of my 200 guardsman have grazed their elbows.
You could just consolidate man down and flesh wound into suppression markers? Equal your save you live and get a suppression marker, beat it you live, fail it you die and get a supression marker?
Epic had a similar system if i recall.

On Topic - The Ultra Marines movie was daring and went against the wind, and we should applaud it for that.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM
harkovast at 2:32PM, June 18, 2011
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I like the idea of suppression and man down being one thing, that would make life a lot simpler.
The saving throw idea has potential, I was just trying to see if I could avoid having guys get hit and there be no effect.

Ultramarines deserved an oscar.

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last edited on July 18, 2011 10:18AM

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