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Mob Ties
ifelldownthestairs at 3:24PM, July 10, 2010
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We really, really hated this comic, but what did you guys think?
you know why birds don't write their memoirs? because birds don't lead epic lives, that's why. who'd want to read what a bird does? nobody. that's who.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Salsa at 4:58PM, July 10, 2010
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Eh, the characterizations seemed more like retcons than asspulls. Other than that All I have to say is I must be mental, because I could keep up woth the plot just fine, until he started posting filler in every other update, and then there's the pencils for a sequence he posted later that I couldn't make out due to the horrible quality of the lines. My pencils tend to look fairly close to my inks and actually look better most of the time. As for the fan service and the other stuff, I think it was supposed to be a parody or Shonen manga, but wound up being what you read.

All I have to say is that I was planning on putting DoaMP on the chopping block. I figured ya'll would rip it to shreds, but after this latest review, I don't know. I do know that I don't want my comic to be the straw that beaks the camel's back. I am also slightly ashamed that I had this in my favorites at one point, but removed it because of the filler and the utter amount of crude that was starting to gunk up the plot, which was making it hard for me to keep up with it.
RAGE!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
RPGgrenade at 5:13PM, July 10, 2010
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was way too confused with the first Two pages… and with the hundreds of pages during the whole thing… the art never, and I repeat, NEVER got better (I skipped every few one hundred pages to see)
I think it deserves the art remarks, to be honest, I didn't stick around to review the story

And as for the Fanservice, it's normal to have a lot of fanservice in a comic… I for one, only use it as a way to bring a few laughs or it's just there… but it isn't entirely about the panties and swimsuits and shit…. my comic has fanservice because it's about Swimming! So both genders wear very little as it is!
But I don't see the point of Fanservice in a comic about… uh… what was it about again? Mobs? well, whatever… (man, that was a pointless sounding ramble)
my point is, Fanservice is fine if it's something generally going to appear anyway in the story. But i don't think this has an excuse…

The liquid creations of Gods passed down to man, but sometimes an object of the gods' realm can cause chaos in the mortal realm.
Read Nectar of the Gods!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
harkovast at 5:54PM, July 10, 2010
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PRGgrenade, fan service is tacky.
Under age fan service showing a 15 year old girl is just disgusting!

For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
RPGgrenade at 6:12PM, July 10, 2010
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harkovast
PRGgrenade, fan service is tacky.
Under age fan service showing a 15 year old girl is just disgusting!
and that is why you won't be reviewing that comic of mine I mentioned XD but rather the one with a better story

The liquid creations of Gods passed down to man, but sometimes an object of the gods' realm can cause chaos in the mortal realm.
Read Nectar of the Gods!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Salsa at 7:34PM, July 10, 2010
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harkovast
PRGgrenade, fan service is tacky.
Under age fan service showing a 15 year old girl is just disgusting!

we are agreed on the subject of 15 year olds being the object of fan service.

I have to respectfully disagree on the topic of fan-service. The term implies that you are doing something to reward your readers, or draw them in. It is possible to do fan-service tastefully, but, sadly, it is rarely done so. Fan-service can be in the form of a lovely lady in a flattering evening gown at a modern ball, or, to promote gender equality, a muscled soldier performing maintenance on a vehicle out in the desert with no shirt on. Both are tasteful and make sense in context. Having a woman wear a miniskirt while performing aerial kicks while giving the males in the audience ample views up said skirt, or a handsome man wearing naught but briefs and a bow-tie while acting as a cabana boy, is tasteless and likely to put off as many as you pull in. In short, not all fan-service is tacky, but most is.


On the plus side, I believe that you'll enjoy Anecdote.
RAGE!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Chernobog at 8:28PM, July 10, 2010
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Generally, I can't say I mind fan service unless it's absolutely constant to the point of being jarringly noticeable.

Underage stuff, though? I can put up with a lot of things, but…. eghhh. :/
 
 
“You tell yourself to just
enjoy the process,” he added. “That whether you succeed or fail, win or
lose, it will be fine. You pretend to be Zen. You adopt detachment, and
ironic humor, while secretly praying for a miracle.”
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Canuovea at 11:41PM, July 10, 2010
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I can't understand why people read this so much, and that this is so popular. If there actually is a story that is followable, and it began that way, then I can understand a comic hanging on to fans even as it descends into the general crappiness that this review entails. I mean, how long should it take before a reader abandons a comic that has gone from good, or tolerable, to terrible? Apparently the comic is quite long, 1000 pages or so, and I just can't help but ask; what percentage of that 1000 is fanservice that is unimportant to the story in any meaningful way and/or just simple filler?
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
stinger9 at 3:21AM, July 11, 2010
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joined: 10-1-2007
Ugh, I remember trying to read Mob Ties some time last year. It's one of those comics that I really did want to try and like, but I just couldn't. Admitedlly, I didn't notice the constant under age fan service, but rather I was irritated by the art and the story as I recall. Nothing seems to happen, there was no real humor, so I don't think I made it past the first hundred pages or so.

Unfortunately, this is a rather popular comic, and a quick glance at there comments seems to show that your about to find your self up against some fans who are more hardcore than Mildly Mundane's.
I CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO VOTE FOR A PLATYPUS!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
ifelldownthestairs at 4:22AM, July 11, 2010
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I suggested that taltamir present his argument in the forum if he wanted to discuss the review, but instead he kept posting on the comic page… so I'll just address his points here.

taltamir
So… I read the entire “review”:
1. The “art” of the review looks like utter crap; mobties art is of high quality. Just for the heck of it I looked back at page 1 through 3 of mob ties, and while the art quality is lower then the current pages, it is still way above average, and still good. On the other hand, the “review” comic would have been less ugly if it was stick figures.

ABOVE average? The quality of Mob Ties' early pages is on par with basic manga sketches. The idea that you would be impressed with it enough to call it “way above average” baffles me.

taltamir
2. Rather then make legitimate complaints, the review set up a strawman argument, the entire review is repeatedly trying to drive home that mobties is a pedophile comic of nothing but fanservice of underaged girls, that is total BS (I have come across such comics, and those are indeed gross, but mobties isn't one of those).

It isn't? So you're suggesting that there is a purpose to the skimpy outfits, or the filler pages of the female progagonist in provocative poses and attire? And of course let's not forget the tattoo that says “Aim Here” on the small of the FIFTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL'S BACK. Unless you can explain to me how these things enrich the plot in any way, I don't really see this as a valid point.

taltamir
3. The only other complaint, mentioned in passing, is about the comic's plot using “cheap explanations” for gimmicks… that is BS, the comic is simply set in a high magitech fantasy setting.

There were a number of complaints brought up in that panel, if I remember correctly. But to elaborate on the point I made that you're talking about, yes, I think these elements are just thrown in. One example I mentioned was the ghost-seeing eye - this could have been subtly alluded to before the revelation, there could have been dropped hints and references that would all come together once the reader realizes that she can do this. And how is it brought up? She flatly says it, as we're seeing the ghosts through her vision. That is an extremely lazy way to introduce something to the story that really could have been far more interesting; I don't see how you can deny that. I'm not calling the plausibility into question, since as you say, it's a high magitech fantasy, I'm saying that this could have been handled much better.

taltamir
4.DD has entire sections of hardcore pornography comics… even if their (false) accusations were true, their claims to the defilement of the sanctity of drunkduck is hilarious.

Very true, there is an entire section of adult rated comics…. none of which we have reviewed. We reviewed Mob Ties, however, and it parades an underage girl around in not only provocative attire, but a rather provocative situation as well. Mob Ties is rated Teen, incidentally, which renders concern over its content valid.

taltamir
If I had to count legitimate cons about mob ties, it would be that the pacing is sometimes a bit iffy; but no such legitimate concerns are raised in this review.

You're right, the pacing is bad too. But we have limited space for each review, and can't go over every single quality a comic may or may not have. The bad pacing was not nearly as glaring as the things we did bring up in the review.
you know why birds don't write their memoirs? because birds don't lead epic lives, that's why. who'd want to read what a bird does? nobody. that's who.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
harkovast at 4:38AM, July 11, 2010
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I notice that the people defending Mob Ties seem to be over looking the fact that the girl appearing in the fan service, getting her tits out, and getting tattoo's that say “AIM HERE” above her arse is 15 YEARS OLD!
The defenders appear to simply over look this fact, rather then try to defend it, since such content is indefensible.
If you aren't disgusted by the site of a sexualised young girl getting her arse and tits out and whoring it up…well frankly I don't know how to continue the conversation with you.
If you don't know why its wrong, you are beyond my ability to educate!

I also liked that a lot all of the comics fans appear to spend more time saying the webcomic review/harkovast is bad then actually defending Mob Ties.
If you think anything I make is crap, you are welcome to your opinion, but that has no bearing on how bad Mob Ties is or how disgusting showing under-aged boobs to get pervy readers for your comic is!

For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
RPGgrenade at 8:48AM, July 11, 2010
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Yeah, I didn't get why Everyone was bashing Harkovast for the sake of defending Mob Ties (which bears no relevance, anyway)
And Mob ties' Art does look like manga… but like those old ass ones from 20 years ago that have no real good art.

And the only reason i'm not entirely disgusted by the 15 year old girl is because I'm not even of drinking age, yet (which is confusing on how I have a comic about it)
I'm still 17 so fanservice that are of girls from 15 and older doesn't really disgust me as of yet. i should within a few years, though.

Forcing fanservice is something to get a few more readers sometimes if you don't think the story is good enough, or if you just want something that'll merely attract readers a little (Which is something i may use occasionally, but mostly because i want to see how well I can draw females in different clothes)

There are a few stories i can bear to have Fanservice, and in this order
-Comedy
-Romance
-sports
-fantasy
I'm just used to it being in those, if it's in something else, i just don't get it.
I can't judge the story, though, i haven't the patience to read a whole 1000 page comic about… whatever it's about

The liquid creations of Gods passed down to man, but sometimes an object of the gods' realm can cause chaos in the mortal realm.
Read Nectar of the Gods!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
DrLuck at 9:05AM, July 11, 2010
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I still don't get why people get angry when artists volunteer to be reviewed. Am I the only person that sees this as an opportunity to get a frank opinion and improve on it?

As for my opinion on Mob Ties, I won't bother going on about the underage sexual tones of the comic because hark and Kevin already did that. There are some other legitimate concerns about this comic.

One of my biggest gripes on it is the amount of filler that clogs up the comic. There is filler every week on the same day. Instead of just changing the update schedule, Author Ninja just keeps posting filler and goes, “I'm tiiiired.” That is lazy and inexcusable. If you have issues updating on a certain day, then don't update on that day. Is it really that hard of a concept? So now, whenever someone goes through the comic, they get interrupted every couple pages of filler. It jars the story each time.

My big complaint on the art is the lack of backgrounds. There are little to no backgrounds in the comic. When there is, the characters are shoved in front of it more to cover it up. The importance of backgrounds is essential to storytelling. I want to know where these guys are. The comic needs to zoom out far more often than it does to show me the setting and establish where we are. I also barely ever get to see the characters' feet, which is a sign of someone not really drawing backgrounds. Draw the setting, draw the character in the setting zoomed out. I don't always need to see the characters so close.

My other complaint is the amount of words. There are so many words that clog up one panel with a speech bubble. Will Eisner once said there should be no more than three sentences in a speech bubble. I personally think there should be no more than two, but you get the idea. There are multiple issues that come with too many words at once:

1) People look at it and say, “Eh, too much effort.” Believe me, it happens. People aren't reading a comic for the words. If they wanted that, they'd read a novel.
2) Too much information at once. Space it out and let me absorb it slowly. Don't rush to explain everything or you're going to lose me.
3) Pacing. It's all rushed at once, so the pacing is just a character sitting there explaining things. Give me more panels of the characters' reactions and expressions as they disclose information.

Example: http://www.drunkduck.com/Mob_Ties/index.php?p=720828
Last panel would be a perfect time to have another panel with a reaction shot of the character going, “OH MY GOD!” Instead, I just get the back of the head. Not nearly as dramatic or exciting.

My final word on this is that I really hate how many sound effects there are to explain actions. Draw it out, don't tell me what they're doing. The golden rule of comics is “show, don't tell.” Show me the character is fretting over another's safety. Show me that the cat girl is scratching someone else, don't tell me through a sound effect. Once in a great while, it's funny to do an “unsound effect,” like someone running in and a sound effect going “APPEAR.” This happens all the time though, so I think it's more of an art issue than anything else.

Overall, whenever I see this comic, I either see filler or too many words for me to want to bother. I think this comic can be drastically improved if there's far less filler, spacing out the words (and in turn, improving the pacing), and drawing full backgrounds.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
taltamir at 9:40AM, July 11, 2010
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DrLuck
One of my biggest gripes on it is the amount of filler that clogs up the comic. There is filler every week on the same day. Instead of just changing the update schedule, Author Ninja just keeps posting filler and goes, “I'm tiiiired.” That is lazy and inexcusable. If you have issues updating on a certain day, then don't update on that day. Is it really that hard of a concept? So now, whenever someone goes through the comic, they get interrupted every couple pages of filler. It jars the story each time.
This is a legitimate issue, maybe you should have given it more attention in the review.

harkovast
you are just ignoring the issues I have raised with the comic (even though I specifically told you when these points occur)

I am literally looking up those specific points, linking them, and counter arguing.
For example:

harkovast
You go back to staring at Mika's buttocks and telling yourself "This is okay, I mean its not REALLY fan service.
You are right, I am NOT looking at her butt. Maybe that is the issue, maybe you are projecting.
lets look it over more carefully: http://www.drunkduck.com/Mob_Ties/index.php?p=230802
Her butt is notwhere near the certain of the image, now that you singled it out I AM looking at it, and what do I see? well, absolutely nothing. Her posture covers it up, her dress and the shadow the dress casts completely cover everything up. This is not a panty shot, I have SEEN panty shots before.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Genejoke at 9:54AM, July 11, 2010
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I don't think they saw any pro's to the comic.

I think that for hark and I fell down the stairs a lot came down to having thoroughly reviewed a lot of rubbish and being digusted at the under age sex object aspect. I think other aspects got it a little harder than they might because of this but I managed maybe ten pages and while I thought the art was passable it had no appeal and the story had even less. I found reading ten pages a chore so imagine reading the whole lot if you didn't enjoy it one bit? I think you would build up a bit of hate for it too.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
harkovast at 9:55AM, July 11, 2010
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I cant comment on pro's if I dont find any.
I am not going to just make up good points for the sake of being nice.
And I'm sorry but I didn't find anything appealing about this comic.
The characters are cliche and ridiculous.
Mika is not a character but just an excuse for the author to forefill his fantasies. (I am sure the spanking scene was essential to plot…)
The Irish teacher pulls new personality traits and abilities out of the bag as the plot demands. The guy grows about six feet taller during the course of the comic!

Is the comic supposed to be funny? Jokes like “Man farts and the smell makes everyone run away” or “Woman gets her tits out and man gets nose bleed in that disgusting way people do in crappy anime” are utter crap.

Even if the fanservice wasn't disturbing and immoral by using children, the fact that the comic relies on fan service at all is a sign of how weak it is. Female characters just show up to get their jugs out and put on a jiggle show. Is that really the level this comic is aiming for? As I mentioned, the drawings are too ugly for it to be even slightly erotic.

I still think arguing with you about this comic is kinda bizarre, since I dont really believe you've read the comic.
I hate the comic, and I've seen Mika's boobs and ass repeatedly. For you to have missed these you are not the mob ties fan you claim to be!
Did you see the sequence where they all get naked in a hot tub? trying to blank that part out or something?
The robe falling open so to show her underage breast with a razor blade covering her nipple?
Oh yes, I must be projecting. I am using my mind to force the author to draw an underage girl in sexual poses. Sorry about that, I will try to stop!

I should also make mention of the fact that the art is so fugly that on early pages when the minions without faces were talking to the hero, until the comic TOLD ME they dont have faces, I didn't realise! I though they were just not having their faces drawn in. The other characters mouths and noses disappear all the time, so seeing them drawn that way just suggested more laziness from the artist.
I think if I cant tell if a character has a face or not without being told, there is something very very wrong with the art style.

Genejoke- That is a pretty fair analysis. I will admit that while the art and story are absolute rubbish, I have seen worse. But once you have 15 year old boobs on show, the gloves come off!

For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Dark Pascual at 1:06PM, July 11, 2010
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I just want to make a few points:

1.- Fanservice can be tastefully done and it should be used with some inteligence. It's not about being a prud or a religious zealot, is about have a little bit of class and taste. There are many comics, manga, anime, movies, etc. that show beautiful women in sexy outfits that, while arousing, are done in vare good taste. Being sexy doesn't mean make you female character act and dress like a slut.

2.- Cheap fanservice is sometimes (most of the times) used to distract the audience from bad pacing, bad storytelling, bad character development and overall bad writing.

3.- Given the nature and purpose of the fanservice, it SHOULD NOT be used in an underage character. I've read mangas that claim to attempt an honest approach about teens and sexuality (some of the Masakazu Katsura's work, to give an example), and while the nudity in said works have various degrees of tastefulness, it still comes as a little bit inapropiatte.

4.- Even IF you could make a tasteful fanservice of a 15 years old girl (and I mean make it look beautiful without oversexualize her), portrait a grown up man lusting after said girl (and viceversa) is of VERY poor taste. Grown adults should NOT lust after teens. You could argue that as long as doesn't go beyond of the realms of a fantasy, there is no harm. That doesn't mean that it can't be seen as creepy.

5.- In a media like webcomics, when everybody with access to a Internet conection can post his-hers work, the need of criticism and reviewing it's even more evident.

Most of us don't have access to editors, so feedback from our fans and reviewers it's very important.

The reviewers and critics, while using THEIR perceptios, knowledge and opinions about certain work, at the same time strip themselves of any overly emotional approach in order to find objective strenghts and weakness of said work.

Yes, the liking of a comic is nothing but a matter of personal taste. But the quality is sometimes a less subjetive matter.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
ifelldownthestairs at 1:56PM, July 11, 2010
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I would like to clear something up that apparently people coming here have been led to believe - at no point did we ever call the plot of Mob Ties confusing. I don't know how this misconception came about, but we never said that. We said that it is poorly handled and progresses sloppily. A badly written storyline can certainly be difficult to read, but that doesn't make it confusing.

Another thing a few people have suggested is that our review was clouded by grumpiness over reviewing so many bad comics, and that this one's fan service set us off. It's true that fan service, particularly of this grotesque type, is one of our buttons, but even had we reviewed an excellent comic last week, we still would have been as harsh with this one. No, the art isn't good. Yes, the writing is a shambled mess. With those qualities, what else are we supposed to say?

I believe that anything can be presented as a story, I really do. Look at Lolita - there's a story about corrupted youth. But it's brilliantly written, with rich, fleshed out characters, and even more importantly, is very tasteful in its presentation of the highly suggestive subject matter. The fact that it walked that line so well is a large part of why it's considered a classic. So really ask yourself, does Mob Ties offer any of these qualities?

The answer is no, it doesn't, not even a single one. It just doesn't look to be made with a whole lot of thought. The plot turns are ridiculous and poorly presented, the characters are one dimensional and uninteresting, and in the end what shines through the most is an apparent desire to ogle a young girl. This is more or less why our review was dominated with this subject.

Pros? Well um… he started to add color to the pages after a while, I guess that's good. I'm sorry, but it's tremendously difficult to think of anything good about this comic. As Hark said, we're not going to make stuff up just to be nice, and we're certainly not going to do it for a comic we dislike this much.
you know why birds don't write their memoirs? because birds don't lead epic lives, that's why. who'd want to read what a bird does? nobody. that's who.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
douhugal at 5:14PM, July 11, 2010
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I am surprised that, harkovast is actively deciding other people are no fan of a certain comic, because clearly they have the wrong way of looking at the comic and his way is ther right way…
harkovast
Taltamir well you obviously aren't much of a mob ties fan because you dont seem to have read many pages.
This argument listed here was even debunked in the previous comment.
Not listening to each others arguments and a hate vibe towards this comic is noticeable here.

harkovast
And again, as if to prove me right, a Mob Ties fan insults us rather then defend the kiddie fan service.
Proof that you cant defend the indefensible.
Victimizing yourself in a discussion is a known tactic and a low one. You know what is going to happen when you oppose something popular. But never ever use such a thing as prove that every fan of something is a babbling buffoon and you are right.

The fact author ninja asked this review himself, is no reason to say that fans of the webcomic shouldn't reply on the review. It seems to me as a honest question of author ninja, about what is good in the comic and what could be made better.

Only naming the cons is like telling him to stop the comic, because it is rubbish in your opinion. Giving feedback needs to call the pro's and con's. The fact he updates almost every weekday is something remarkable. And not many do that on drunkduck. Maybe this rate should be lowered in favour of better backgrounds. that seems to me as viable feedback.

The beginning is confusing if you try to read it as a straight storyline, that's true. Making the sound effects not happen every time, creating a more see then read is also a viable point. When rightly explained which I find in this comment: of Dr Luck. Who seems a lot more objective. I won't quote the entire post of him, but I would advise author ninja to read that one at least.

DrLuck
My other complaint is the amount of words. There are so many words that clog up one panel with a speech bubble. Will Eisner once said there should be no more than three sentences in a speech bubble. I personally think there should be no more than two, but you get the idea. There are multiple issues that come with too many words at once:

1) People look at it and say, “Eh, too much effort.” Believe me, it happens. People aren't reading a comic for the words. If they wanted that, they'd read a novel.
2) Too much information at once. Space it out and let me absorb it slowly. Don't rush to explain everything or you're going to lose me.
3) Pacing. It's all rushed at once, so the pacing is just a character sitting there explaining things. Give me more panels of the characters' reactions and expressions as they disclose information.

Example: http://www.drunkduck.com/Mob_Ties/index.php?p=720828
Last panel would be a perfect time to have another panel with a reaction shot of the character going, “OH MY GOD!” Instead, I just get the back of the head. Not nearly as dramatic or exciting.

My final word on this is that I really hate how many sound effects there are to explain actions. Draw it out, don't tell me what they're doing. The golden rule of comics is “show, don't tell.” Show me the character is fretting over another's safety. Show me that the cat girl is scratching someone else, don't tell me through a sound effect. Once in a great while, it's funny to do an “unsound effect,” like someone running in and a sound effect going “APPEAR.” This happens all the time though, so I think it's more of an art issue than anything else.

I will bookmark this page, so I'll probably comment on the replies and questions about this post, when there are any.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
taltamir at 7:00PM, July 11, 2010
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Harkovest, now that you have to defend your claims you suddenly focus on one issue, the age. This is because this is the only issue you feel you can defend. Reading the review, over half of it is dedicated entirely to ripping on the art, which is actually quite good. And for the age, the review doesn't mention the scenes you are now focusing on, only the scene where is she is crying in the bathroom, which isn't fanservice at ALL; yet you claim is a “panty shot” (no panties are visible).

Now you are coming up with new scenes, and I have to look each up… why do I have to look them up? So I could say “you are wrong because XYZ” OR say “wow, he was totally right and I just didn't notice”.

And now you make yourself out to be a victim, not to mention insult anyone who tries to call you out on it.

In regards to the jokes just being “old and reused”… well, show me some new jokes… I mean, did you know that even shakespear was using yo-momma jokes? The fart one was indeed bad, toilet humor is the lowest form of humor and is just not funny. Thankfully I can count exactly 2 in the entire comic.

And while the claim that “filler” breaks flow and if you just don't have anything to post, then don't post anything that day is legitimate, its not THAT big a deal… and is actually extremely common… very few comics make a seperation between “artist doodles” and “story”… but I agree all should.

Now lets get back to the main issue, the so called “pedophilia” (first of, sexualization of a late teen is hebephilia, pedophilia is of little kids; but whatever).
I linked the one scene you referenced in the review. You want further debate about other iffy scenes… lets take the “open outdoors steam-bath”
It would help if you at least mention page numbers so I can find them quicker and actually say “wow he was totally right” or “you are wrong because XYZ”.

As far as I remember from the “outdoor hotspring scene”:
1. No naughty bits were shown
2. It wasn't sexualized (thus, no fanservice)
3. It was at most a repetition of an EXTREMELY common theme in japanese manga, done far more tastefully than most mangas. And it evoked no lust over minors in me… (not even the CONSIDERATION of lust over minors).
I don't see the outrage in “they went to an open steambath in japan and no naughty bits were shown”… In fact, cartoon network here in the USA shows those kind of scenes all the time. (they just edit them to ensure no naughty bits are shown). So, that is strictly PG13.

This, of course, would be easier to judge if I had a page number. as you said, there are a whole lot of them.

As far as being “a huge fan”… At the moment I have 1748 links in my “actively read webcomics” bookmarks folder. (unfortunately many had to be relegated into the “permanent hiatus” and “dead links” folders.)
What is my relationship to mob ties? I enjoy reading it, and I do not think you have been fair in your review of it. Your focus (in the review itself) on the art was just plain mean, hypocritical, and uncalled for, and merely served to undermine your other points.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Wordweaver_three at 7:23PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 458
joined: 8-1-2008
The only real issue I see with the Mob Ties review is that I think you were slightly unfair in regards to the art. It's uninspired, “everyday anime”, but it's not (please forgive me BK) Crossing Death level of bad.

I'm not saying it's great, it's just not quite as bad as you have made out. Although I will grant you that on numerous occasions certain characters do become unrecognizable.

Questionable images concerning a certain young character aside, it seems to be poorly thought out. The storyline is very scatterbrained, characters reaction to each other is often unrealistic or inexplicable, the situations are horrifically contrived, and the humor falls flat on it's face.

At least, I think that's an attempt at humor.

At any rate, the whole thing feels like a “random” comic that keeps kicking around the storyline like a sick puppy.

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
El Cid at 7:25PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 971
joined: 5-4-2009
I think there's one thing that everyone, including the author can agree on:

Mob ties is absolutely NOT the third best comic on Drunk Duck!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
TheFlyingGreenMonkey at 8:21PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,830
joined: 12-19-2008
I really like mob ties. And I must agree with the mob ties fans. Your arguments seem to be lacking. People are giving you good counter points and you are shooting them down. The age thing can be chalked up to the fact that it is anime. A lot of anime has a lot of underage girls in skimpy outfits. I guess its how much you can tolerate. Me being an anime fan and a person who has a “different strokes for different folks” mentality doesn't really care when a cartoon 15 year old is trying to be racy. I think it deserves its top ten spot.

Though I do think some of your criticism was well placed. The characters do seem to get wild changes in their personalities. Other than that and the fillers I have no big issue with it. Though you do have to realize that the artist's real life is rough and thus contributes to most filler. Some people think it is better to throw filler out instead of missing an update. I neither agree or disagree with that approach.

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Author_Ninja at 9:24PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 24
joined: 6-17-2007
First of all, I would like to apologize for my fans. I did sort of feel bad about the review and wanted to show off why, but I didn't expect so many of them to start fights on the Webcomic review site. I don't condone what some of them are doing, but…Can't control the fans.

I won't make excuses or defend anything I've done. I won't even really explain it, because that would be a waste of time. If you don't like it, fine, I'll just suck it up and take the criticism. Do I care? Yeah, I do genuinely want people to like my comic, But I feel like it's not really a review. It's almost like a parody of a review. It's almost like some reviewers who purposely complain about something for the sake of being funny. I did ask to be reviewed without checking out past reviews so I was a bit surprised by how harsh it was, but when someone says that your comic is the worst thing they've ever read, well a little bit of a shocked and angry response is only natural.

All I have to say about Mob ties is that it is a Manga Parody Comic. It's American styled manga art, I'm not about to claim it's actual manga because the slavering manga fans would tear me apart. As for my art. It's my style. Don't like it? Bite me. I've been drawing like this for 24 years, I'm not about to make a drastic change. And I'm not great at backgrounds. It's a failing I'm willing to admit. I don't have great spacial relation and have a hard time drawing anything technical. It's a character driven comic anyway, if you read it to admire the furniture, I feel sorry for you.

Bottom line is, Japanese media has completely different standards than American comics. Here's some examples.

Girls can get married at 16, so at 15, Mika is practically an adult. Lay off it. Different country different laws. A lot of anime and manga has kids younger than her in the buff and it's not pornographic. I can't tell you the number of perfectly legitimate manga that still have 13 year old girls tripping for obligatory panty shots. That does tend to put me off too, but there's girl's anime with topless teenagers in it. Different standards of decency, it's the land of public bathhouses and used panty vending machine for god's sake. At least I've never crossed the line to full frontal.

The plot seems to be perfectly followable to the point that some of my fans can even predict where the story is going. If you can't follow the plot, no skin off my nose. Go read a video game comic.

However, some good did come from all this. I've discovered the sheer level of hatred people have for fillers, so those are out. But for your information, it's not laziness. I work 40 hours ever week and then spend close to another 40 hours a week working on the comic. But if people are still going to bitch about a little placeholder, then I'm fine with that. Fillers are out.


So, thank for the review, sorry about the complaints. Still, it's probably the most views your review comic has ever had.

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
DrLuck at 10:01PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 134
joined: 1-4-2009
Author_Ninja


All I have to say about Mob ties is that it is a Manga Parody Comic. It's American styled manga art, I'm not about to claim it's actual manga because the slavering manga fans would tear me apart. As for my art. It's my style. Don't like it? Bite me. I've been drawing like this for 24 years, I'm not about to make a drastic change. And I'm not great at backgrounds. It's a failing I'm willing to admit. I don't have great spacial relation and have a hard time drawing anything technical. It's a character driven comic anyway, if you read it to admire the furniture, I feel sorry for you.




However, some good did come from all this. I've discovered the sheer level of hatred people have for fillers, so those are out. But for your information, it's not laziness. I work 40 hours ever week and then spend close to another 40 hours a week working on the comic. But if people are still going to bitch about a little placeholder, then I'm fine with that. Fillers are out.


So, thank for the review, sorry about the complaints. Still, it's probably the most views your review comic has ever had.


I have gone from neutral to pissed from this post alone. It's this kind of attitude that makes me want to reach across the internet and slap you in the face ten times over. Fans getting pissed off? Nah. Insults being thrown? Nope. This post is the most ridiculous thing I've read (quoting the parts I'm in particular disgusted to see you say).

First off, there is always room for improvement. You as an artist should be looking at what you lack and build on it. Don't like drawing backgrounds? Make yourself draw them. Not good at drawing cars? Draw them. Soon enough, backgrounds aren't an issue anymore, and you can draw a damned nice Ferrari. You should never fall into “I've drawn like this for years so I'm not going to change” mode of thinking if you want to make the best at what you do. Can't do spacial? So what? I can give you a bunch of guides on point perspective if you'd like. It's really simple if you know the trick behind it.

And yes, I would love to admire the furniture. Because you know what furniture does? It tells me about the characters. Example: the difference between an art deco chair and a beanbag chair in a character's home.

Art deco suggests the person is either my middle aged aunt or deeply cares about the appearance of their home. This can lead to suggesting a character having self-image issues and trying to put on a perfect look behind a fragile ego.

Beanbag chair can suggests a character is laid back and just wants something comfy to sit in in their spare time. It's more open, obvious, and frank.

Color and fabric can even change a tone. What do you think when you see a black, leather couch versus a cheap couch with springs popping out of it?

My point: The setting adds to the characters. You're a character driven comic? It's the perfect reason to introduce setting. What if I walked into your apartment/house and see a bunch of garbage lying around? And if I walked in and it's completely clean? Things like that add a lot.

As to the second paragraph, it's being lazy. I'm a junior going to senior at a rigorous art college that requires three studio classes and two history/liberal classes. Each studio class is five hours long. Each homework assignment is five hours long at least (meeting once a week). Liberal/history takes two hours each, with perhaps an hour of homework each week. That's, in total so far, 36 hours. That's not adding in my hours of working for money, which is generally 8 hours a week.

44 hours, about the same as your work schedule not even getting into comic time. I know exactly how you feel, so don't pull the “Oh, I'm so busy all the time” card.

Now, let's say that instead of doing (estimate) five comics a week, you instead do two. Take that 40 hours and split it. About 8 hours per comic page, brings you to 16 hours total. Add in time to do things you're not really sure to do, and you got:

1) Two damned nice comic pages that let you expand as an artist
2) A far more engaging setting to add to your story
3) More clues about characters or even moods. Blue, dim room during the rain versus a bright, colorful room in the sunshine is a big difference.
4) An update schedule you can keep up with without filler

And plenty of time to spare to do other things, like drawing more. I don't mean comic pages, I meant just drawing more. You can never draw enough.

I just explained to you everything you can do that can help improve your comic, your art, and even your personal schedule. If you further feel that you “don't need to change anything” or “are good enough” at what you do, then I'm sorry. You fail as an artist just by that concept. Always accept critiques, always do better than before, and always do something new.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Salsa at 10:05PM, July 11, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,384
joined: 7-10-2008
Author_Ninja
So, thank for the review, sorry about the complaints. Still, it's probably the most views your review comic has ever had.


-_^ I don't know about most people, but as for me, this comes off as rather egotistical.

Why? You may ask.

Telling someone that, is about equivalent to saying that your gracing someone with there presence. I'll be honest, saying that this comic is a parody of a review is pretty damned arrogant as well. If you had bothered to read this comic, which only has 51 pages that's twenty minutes tops, you would realize that to get a good review on this site you have to have charm, good art, and good writing. You can get by without one of them, but the other two have to be top notch to do so. I'll be honest, the writing and the art were average at best and the charm was in the humor, but humor left the party a while ago.


@Taltamir:

Name: Adam Warnock

Age: 20

e-mail: salsa.the.geek@gmail.com

Major: Computer Science

This is in response to a comment left in this comic's review page. I do not hide behind a veil of anonymity. I do not need to hide behind a persona crafted of spite. I invite you to do your worse. I am ready. I am willing. I am more than capable of taking anything you can dish out. You have shown nothing but disrespect for Harkovast and Kevin. You have attacked a comic done by Harkovast, saying it looks like it was drawn by an eight year old. This is not the mark of someone who does not hide behind the anonymity of the internet. This is the mark of a troll sir. I am normally a rather nice person. I joke, I laugh, and I take whatever I dish out. You total disregard for the request of the creators of this comic has put me in a rather spiteful mood. Attack me if you wish. Smear my name with your shit and try to shatter my reputation among the few that know me. I will let my actions clear my name. In short…

Bring it.

Edit: Almost slipped my mind Softcore porn, Taltamir, is pornography that does not show two people going at it like two monkeys in heat at the height of mating season. Hardcore porn does. Softcore porn is what you'd find in Playboy and Maxim. There I hope you've learned something today.

Edit 2: Just read Dr. Luck's post and she's damn right. I have problems with inking and drawing on my tablet, but that never stopped me from using them. I ink more often and I use my tablet to draw all the time. DoaMP is done entirely on my tablet to try and learn how to deal with the visual disconnect. Is the art good? In my opinion it's pretty crappy, but I have done over thirty comics, one of which has a road going up a hill in perspective. If you have troubles drawing something, work at it. If that doesn't work, take a class on it. I still have problems with human anatomy and I'm going to be taking figure drawing this next semester. Also, now that I think about it. That style shtick is bullshit. DoaMP is a rather simplistic style, but that is far form my only one. I can emulate several other peoples styles and have be trying to cultivate my own style for use in my own stories. For more on why it's bullshit see here. IF that's not enough go here and post one of the concept sketches for MT. I think most of those guys will agree with me.

As for the filler, that and the story just getting boring made me lose interest in this comic. I took it off my favorites and stopped reading. Filler is, in general, a bad idea. As Dr. Luck said, if you're posting filler every week, it's time to rethink your update schedule. The first Mafia game I gm'd I had to change the time I did the narratives because I missed the deadline two times in a row. It's the same principle here bud.

I'm also going to address an issue that Dr. Luck didn't. Most of DD's members are from the US and Europe with some Australians and Asians mixed in. Most of those members are going to see a 15 year old girl being sexualized as mildly disturbing to out right wrong and disgusting. Harkovast and Kev have already said that under-aged fan-service is one of their buttons. As to your rebuttal, how the hell are a 16 year olds breasts going jiggle in a bathing suit relevant to the plot? If you wanted to show that Sid wanted to bang her, there are much more subtle and tasteful ways to do it (admittedly not much more tasteful since it's a 40 something wanting to have sex with a teenager). Oh and the jiggle sound effect was a nice touch.

In short, you have just proven that Kev and Harkovast have basically hit the nail on the head.
RAGE!
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Hakoshen at 11:26PM, July 11, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,090
joined: 11-23-2008
I had a long rant here, but I'm going to boil my opinion down to two sentences.

I don't like the drawing style; it's cheap and its sloppy, even if it does manage to convey its meaning. I wont ever be able to care about the plot because I can't bring myself to read something this visually low grade when there are so many much more graphically appealing comics out there.
God needed the Devil, the Beatles needed the Rolling Stones, Hakoshen needs me.
I'm the enemy he requires to define him.
Soon or later, he'll bring me back to life again for another epic encounter of shouting about power levels and grimacing.
-Harkovast
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
elektro at 11:45PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 807
joined: 6-18-2009
So, I took a glance at this comic Mob Ties, and I stopped almost immediately. I didn't read one sentence, nor did I get to the pages that pissed off the reviewers so much (the infamous fanservice), but I looked at at least five pages, before I saw the problem:

the icon for the comic on the top 10 has better art than the comic itself (though that's not saying much).

Now, for starters, I can't stand manga-inspired art to begin with, so already I have a bias. Still, I wouldn't mind manga so much if every schmuck with a pencil didn't decide to rip off the art from a how-to-draw book from 20 years ago. That said, I think the only thing lazier than manga ripoff is sprite comics, and my hate for those is over a thousand fold.

I was willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt they weren't just a lazy artist until they decided to post that “It's my style. Don't like it? Bite me. I've been drawing like this for 24 years, I'm not about to make a drastic change.” Well, then you are no artist. If you feel that there is no improvement to made what-so-ever, then you are a hack, pure and simple. As pointed out by other people before, a real artist makes leaps and bounds to try to improve their art, no matter what. They practice, take classes, look up tips, accept critiques, etc. A true artist is never satisfied with their old work, otherwise they will stagnate and become irrelevant.

Also, just because you work 40 hours does not give you an excuse. When I started Negligence, I was just starting my senior year of college for my illustration degree, had a really stressful job on the weekend at a small yet very busy local restaurant, was going through a lot of personal issues that I'm not going to share on here, and yet I was able to work on several strips at a time and upload them onto a website. Even then, I realized what I was doing wasn't great, so I went about improving my artwork despite all those obstacles standing in the way. If you feel you can't update in time, then don't update every single day.

Finally, I don't think you've read this review comic before. These guys are not going to kiss your ass just because you have a top rated comic on the front page. If they find faults, they will mention them. This is true of every single review they've done. Hell, I had my comic reviewed on here months ago and they ripped it apart, yet I'm typing here defending them. What does that say? Maybe a little slice of humble pie would be good for you.

Of course, this whole rant was from looking at the art. If the art isn't good enough to attract readers, then you better be Pearls Before Swine, otherwise your writing is probably not good either.

Anyway, good luck with Anecdote, guys. Personally, it's one of my favorites, and the author doesn't strike me as an asshole.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
ifelldownthestairs at 11:47PM, July 11, 2010
(online)
posts: 432
joined: 7-4-2007
Oh my god. Where do I begin.

douhugal
Harkovast
And again, as if to prove me right, a Mob Ties fan insults us rather then defend the kiddie fan service.
Proof that you cant defend the indefensible.

Victimizing yourself in a discussion is a known tactic and a low one. You know what is going to happen when you oppose something popular. But never ever use such a thing as prove that every fan of something is a babbling buffoon and you are right.

I seriously doubt that Hark was trying to rouse pity. He merely pointed out that taltamir seemed more interested in attacking who he was arguing with, rather than making an actual point.

douhugal
The fact author ninja asked this review himself, is no reason to say that fans of the webcomic shouldn't reply on the review.

No one ever said this. I suggested that people with arguments to make for or against the review should comment here, so as to avoid excessive clutter on the comic page. After all, this is what the forum is for.

douhugal
It seems to me as a honest question of author ninja, about what is good in the comic and what could be made better. Only naming the cons is like telling him to stop the comic, because it is rubbish in your opinion. Giving feedback needs to call the pro's and con's. The fact he updates almost every weekday is something remarkable. And not many do that on drunkduck. Maybe this rate should be lowered in favour of better backgrounds. that seems to me as viable feedback.

We are not telling him to stop making the comic. Frankly, if someone decided to stop making their comic on account of a bad review, even one this harsh, I would question their integrity. That's not really how that's supposed to work - you take the criticisms, decide which you agree with and which you don't, and try to apply them to your work in hopes of making it better. We pointed out what we felt were faults, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a rather large part of what a critique is supposed to do. We didn't find any positive qualities to speak of - what do we do then, praytell? Make them up? Patronizing someone who's asked for a review is, in my eyes, far worse than ripping their work to shreds.

taltamir, you read my comment about as carefully as you apparently read Mob Ties; I never said that the panel with the girl crying in the bathroom is a panty shot. What I said was that her ass juts out in a short skirt, with her legs strewn about behind her. Who cries into a guy's chest like this? And more importantly, why was it necessary to show it this way? For a full body shot, she could have been curled up against him, she could have been kneeling. She could have been sitting! But no, she is posed with her ass out. Why was it drawn this way? I notice that that's the only thing you defend, as well - so I'll assume that you agree when I say that the dialogue leading up to that moment was painfully trite.

Wordweaver, I agree that calling it the worst art is a stretch. It really isn't. I still think of it as below average manga-styled scribblings, and the only improvement it's seen over the course of a THOUSAND PAGES is a slightly cleaner appearance and the addition of color. It still doesn't look like anything special, and has grown to be, at its very best moments (usually filler), average.

FlyingGreenMonkey, I have to disagree that we're receiving good counter points. As you say, different strokes for different folks - so perhaps I'm not up for dealing with young girls in skimpy outfits. That means that the comic should have something to fall back on, another strong quality that maybe I could enjoy. Mob Ties doesn't have a single one.

Author_Ninja
First of all, I would like to apologize for my fans. I did sort of feel bad about the review and wanted to show off why, but I didn't expect so many of them to start fights on the Webcomic review site. I don't condone what some of them are doing, but…Can't control the fans.

I won't make excuses or defend anything I've done. I won't even really explain it, because that would be a waste of time. If you don't like it, fine, I'll just suck it up and take the criticism. Do I care? Yeah, I do genuinely want people to like my comic, But I feel like it's not really a review. It's almost like a parody of a review. It's almost like some reviewers who purposely complain about something for the sake of being funny. I did ask to be reviewed without checking out past reviews so I was a bit surprised by how harsh it was, but when someone says that your comic is the worst thing they've ever read, well a little bit of a shocked and angry response is only natural.

Up to this point, I was prepared to compliment you for being such a good sport, and try to personally explain the review to you. Although… asking someone for a review without even bothering to read their previous reviews makes you look a bit shortsighted and self-serving.

Author_Ninja
Bottom line is, Japanese media has completely different standards than American comics. Here's some examples.

I don't need your examples, I already can see the ludicrous argument you're about to bring up. “This is how they do it in some countries”?? That's the best you can come up with? Are you Japanese? Do you live in Japan? Even if you are and do, that defense would only explain rather than justify, but if not then it's an even more useless point. In the Middle East, women are property, to be treated as however their fathers and husbands see fit. Does that mean that if I make a comic about a guy beating the shit out of his wife because she spoke her mind in public, I can refer to that and say that it should be acceptable on those grounds? Absolutely not! What's next? Will Mika become a sex slave for someone because that happens in some parts of the world, and is therefore acceptable?

Surely you knew that this content would rub some people the wrong way, there's no way you can be that naive. It's socially acceptable there? Well that's great, only it isn't here. And since I was raised in this culture, and brought up to believe that youth lasts a little bit longer, and that it's wrong to corrupt youth, I find your comic offensive. As does Hark, who (on this subject, at least) holds the same values. I can't make myself any clearer. You didn't ask a Japanese guy for a review, you asked us, so for you to not have expected that blows my mind.

Author_Ninja
The plot seems to be perfectly followable to the point that some of my fans can even predict where the story is going. If you can't follow the plot, no skin off my nose. Go read a video game comic.

FOR FUCK'S SAKE. What did I just say a few posts up? It is NOT difficult to follow. It is difficult to read because the story is ridiculous. A number of times I had to stop reading because it was so bad, the first such occasion was when the previous fiancee was dressed up as a girl.

Author_Ninja
So, thank for the review, sorry about the complaints. Still, it's probably the most views your review comic has ever had.

EDIT: Hahahahahahahahahaha
you know why birds don't write their memoirs? because birds don't lead epic lives, that's why. who'd want to read what a bird does? nobody. that's who.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM
Rays Animelover at 12:38AM, July 12, 2010
(online)
posts: 1
joined: 5-11-2008
OK,

1. Everyone is entitled to their own opnions. Some like it, some don't.

2. Fanservice is just fanservice. If the author wants to base a whole comic on fanservice(which I don't think MT does) then so be it.

3. Porn? Really, porn? You do realize that DD has a whole section and rating of “Adult” here right? Yes, she is 15 in the begening, but the main charcter does not try anything with her.

4. I will admit that the first few pages were confusing, I did have a hard time getting it, but after reading into it, I was begening to get it.

5. If you only read up to page 10, then I guess that you could get the idea that he wanted to marry a 15 year old, but he didnt't. Page 14-16 tells that he wanted to marry the 15 year olds sister-in-law, which of whom he did not know was married.

6. To my knowledge, the author does this comic A.)For fun, and B.)For his fans who love the comic.

7. He did research for this comic. He looked up information for this comic, for example:
-The outfits for girls in Japan are just that, a shirt and what you called ‘panties’ are acutally bloomers. And yes they do wear them in Japan, or as I have seen (i.e. looked up here http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080430183126AA9v8TQ ) they may not be used any more in some parts.
-The marring age in Japan is: “The male partner must be 18 years ofage or older and the female partner must be 16 years of age or older.” (quoted from
http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7114a.html )

8. Arranged marriage still exists. The engagment between the main guy and the main girl (the 15yrold) is arranged by her father (because of a misunderstanding - see #5) It is done for many reasons. Go look here - http://www.professorshouse.com/family/relationships/arranged-marriages-japan.aspx

9. Fillers have a place, and though he may use them alot (I'm not complaining, I personally like them), he usually has a good reason. Besides, sometimes the fillers are good, or are of another artist to which we can appreciate, and give the artist a needed break to either relax, or take some time to make more pages. I'm not just saying this because some of those fillers were mine either. And I already know that my filler-comic-thing was crap shit.

10. Beauty is in the eye of the holder. I like the art. Some don't. There are some comics out there that have below par art. Some are just stick figures. Art is art. Don't base a review on the art. There are a lot of comic with no layout or backbround at all or they steal backgrounds from other artists.

I love this comic. I can't remember what turned me to read Mob Ties, but I'm glad it did. This is all based on my personal opnion.

My personal opnion, you should not base on what you are going to read (or anything else in general) on the opnion of two random people online (or anyone else in general). Don't knock something before trying it. Just because someone else doesn't like it, doesn't mean you won't. Of course you could be mindless sheep, and be safe and not do anything for your self or make any of your own decisions and let others say what you should eat, drink, do and other shit. It's your choise or….whatever.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:15AM

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