I can understand an author getting angry because somebody gave a bad review about his/her work. Who knows? Maybe I would react the same way towards a bad review.

What I cannot understand is an author hiding behind excuses like “well, other anime series have done it”, “It's seen in ABC manga”.

Yes, there are manga/anime that puts teenagers in risqué situations. Yes, some of them are actually very well written and draw. But that doesn't mean that there would not be any values dissonance with western readers.

To give a personal example, I LOVED Masakazu Katsura's I“s when I was 16. I still think it's a well written manga and a good example of how to do high-school romance from a male perspective. I still think it has an honest approach about how boys see girls and sex when we're teens and early 20's. The art was one of my main inspirations when I was starting to draw manga-style. I would recommend it to anybody asking for a descent shonen romance. Still, the fanservice IRKED me when I recently took a read of it again (being now 27). I gave a free pass (barely) because the writing and it was more than just fanservice. But that doesn't mean that it didn't strike me as inappropriate.

The thing is, dear author, incest IS creepy, grown men lusting for teens IS creepy, grown men spanking teens IS creepy, rape IS creepy!!!

A lot of the anime IS VERY creepy! I'm a manga/anime fan and I will admit that!!!

I like Japanese culture, I would love to go study or work in Japan and spend some time there. But I would be a moron to not admit that they can come up with SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP SHIT to my Western point of view.

Besides, I can understand the whole ”The Simpsons already did it“ mentality. I'm aware that there may not be nothing new to do in fiction and is more important the HOW than the WHAT in storytelling. But just raise the shoulders and say ”it's how others have done it“ is plain lazy.

Also, if the focus is too much in the age gap between the main characters, there is a reason for that. This is what is setting all the plot in motion. It's the main drive. It SHOULD get the main focus at the moment of reviewing.

What brings me to some of the responses of this comic's fans.

Some seem to have a very poor understanding about how the reviewing and criticism works. It's not just ”dress up opinions“.

”The art is good-bad“, ”the story is fun-boring". THAT is just opinion.

Criticism deals with analysis, observation and see beyond the initial emotional response to a certain work. Is spotting it's strengths and weaknesses, see how the individual elements hold together as a unique entity and why.

The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but the quality not so much.

I said it before, and I will hammer the point a lot more: Webcomics, more than ANY OTHER media, need the criticism. Need the reviewing. Need the trashing and bashing.

Other forms of storytelling have the advantage of editors and other people that can see and point the flaws and weaknesses because they are not emotionally invested in the work so they can be more objective about it.

The response of fans is something amazing, and is great when they are willing to point out when the story or the art isn't working anymore instead of leaving when it stops appealing them, but the criticism from a third party is equally necessary to the improvement as an artist and writer.

It doesn't matter if you're doing this just for fun or aspiring make profit of your webcomic, you're posting your work on the Internet, so you're subjecting yourself to public opinion.

Want to be critic or analysis free? Do your work just for yourself.

Wordweaver_three
At least somebody likes this comic.

yo pedobear! What's Shakin'? been in contact with EFG much?

Hmm…I'm not really good at posting large statements without sounding disjointed, so let's see if I can organize this:

First and foremost, please stop acting like Author Ninja is a huge whiny jerk for trying to refute some of your points. You basically called him a pedophile and told him something he's been working on for a long time is nothing more than complete and utter trash. You're implying all sorts of negative things with your tone and the way you are responding. AN would have to be a freaking saint not to get a little riled up about the way you're acting. And it's not just because of his angry reply, you haven't exactly been sweethearts to him from the start.

Secondly, and I know this has been said, the characters are Japanese. Mika is almost-legal by Japan's standards. AN was trying to make Mob Ties so that the comic was actually following Japan's standards. As he already mentioned, she was originally 18, but changed her age to 15 because it's a plot point that she's not yet a legal adult. If Mika was 18, then this entire claim doesn't have any ground because she would be well-over legal. I know you hate it because he's supposedly pushing some sort of pro-pedophile agenda (which isn't correct, because Mika is NOT pre-pubescent. The correct terms would be either hebephilia or ephebophilia depeding on how far along she is in her adolescence.) and is out to burn our eyes with his criminally under-age character's naughty bits, but in reality, I hate to tell you, he's not.

Oh, that brings me to another point: Sid never has sex with Mika. He may lust after her because, oh, I dunno, she's a pretty and young? Despite what some people seem to believe, it is a truth in this world that teenagers have sex. Fourteen year-olds, sixteen-year olds, they have sex with adults. Older men lust after them because they are young and pretty. This is a fact of life. Sid is a 30-some guy who just got engaged to a pretty girl but can't do anything with her because she's afraid of men. This is believable characterization. I would have a harder time believing that Sid doesn't want to have sex with Mika, just for all of the above listed reasons. He's in Japan, she's his wife. I'm sorry if you don't agree with this, but that's the truth.

I know I had more to say on the matter, but my thoughts are in a bit of a jumble. Maybe I'll remember them later, but for now, I guess this will have to be all.

HOW ARE YOU GUYS POSTING SO MANY LONG POSTS!!! YOU COULD MAKE A NOVEL WITH THIS TOPIC ON THE DIFFERENT OPINION OF MOB TIES!!!

Which is very hard…

Chelleromo
First and foremost, please stop acting like Author Ninja is a huge whiny jerk for trying to refute some of your points. You basically called him a pedophile and told him something he's been working on for a long time is nothing more than complete and utter trash. You're implying all sorts of negative things with your tone and the way you are responding. AN would have to be a freaking saint not to get a little riled up about the way you're acting. And it's not just because of his angry reply, you haven't exactly been sweethearts to him from the start.

I personally think Author Ninja is the most immature brat I've seen in any of these comic creators being reviewed. Let's review the points:

1) He volunteered to be reviewed by a couple guys that are notorious for frank and crushing reviews. Do your homework next time.
2) The post I got pissed off about was a post of him being arrogant and “not needing to change anything.” The only reason he's changing the filler issue is because multiple fans agreed with that point, to which he says, “Well, if people are going to bitch about placeholders…” It's reluctance, not eagerness to improve.
3) His argument is basically, “Well in my anime I watch it's totally okay,” without really understanding why the source materials may have taboo topics (see: rape) and treating it differently. I would hardly call a cartoon with comical issues and puns to be a good tone to put in the subject of rape. Take Ctrl+Alt+Del for example. A joke comic about gamers talking about miscarriage. It's inappropriate for the tone of the story.
4) I personally have not insulted Author Ninja (until recently with calling him an immature brat), and his reply that got me angry was condescending and arrogant with my points of drawing backgrounds. Don't paint Author Ninja as being completely in the right. Both sides are insulting one another.

and I'm trying to cool down people between heated posts by stating totally incoherent things!!!


LIKE CHOCOLATE AIRPLANES!!!

DrLuck
I personally think Author Ninja is the most immature brat I've seen in any of these comic creators being reviewed. Let's review the points:

1) He volunteered to be reviewed by a couple guys that are notorious for frank and crushing reviews. Do your homework next time.

I know he volunteered to be reviewed. I never said otherwise. I was just pointing out how they were being a little nastier than they needed to be to get their point across. I personally have never read this review comic before now, so I had no idea they were “frank and crushing”. I guess I should apologize for not looking at my sources. Pfft, I guess I sounded like I was a white-knighting 'tard, then.

DrLuck
2) The post I got pissed off about was a post of him being arrogant and “not needing to change anything.” The only reason he's changing the filler issue is because multiple fans agreed with that point, to which he says, “Well, if people are going to bitch about placeholders…” It's reluctance, not eagerness to improve.
3) His argument is basically, “Well in my anime I watch it's totally okay,” without really understanding why the source materials may have taboo topics (see: rape) and treating it differently. I would hardly call a cartoon with comical issues and puns to be a good tone to put in the subject of rape. Take Ctrl+Alt+Del for example. A joke comic about gamers talking about miscarriage. It's inappropriate for the tone of the story.

I…understand what you mean. But he was already planning on removing the filler anyways, before this review, because I remember him asking us (the readers) if we thought it would make it a better read. I guess now he has a very good reason to do so and to do so immediately. And I understand how the subjects of rape and incest can make people feel very squicky, but I'm not going to get on his case about that. I do agree with you about his anime arguement, though.

DrLuck
4) I personally have not insulted Author Ninja (until recently with calling him an immature brat), and his reply that got me angry was condescending and arrogant with my points of drawing backgrounds. Don't paint Author Ninja as being completely in the right. Both sides are insulting one another.

I didn't mean to sound like he's my Messiah or anything, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. You bring up very good points, and I think he'd listen to them on a normal day. But he's just been completely ripped a new one by a whole bunch of people at once, so he's probably very defensive and upset. That may not excuse him, but he's always been so nice to his readers, so I don't think it's fair to back him into a corner and then expect him to be a shining paradigm of human dignity. But that's just me. You don't have to feel the same way, or anything.

So….. dudes……. we all cool now? or are we making a sequel to this very long novel?

Author_Ninja
As for my art. It's my style. Don't like it? Bite me. I've been drawing like this for 24 years, I'm not about to make a drastic change.

This made me laugh.
Sure, he's got arrogance oozing out of his ears, but i found the complete lack of desire to improve pretty fascination. How can anyone draw the same for 24 years and not be able to improve or not want to? Strange.

As for the comic, well i HAD to check it out after all this fanatic “twilight” fan stuff going on but i had to stop after a few pages. Not my thing.

RPGgrenade
So….. dudes……. we all cool now? or are we making a sequel to this very long novel?

I don't even know. I can't ever seem to shut up. It's a curse, I swear.

Chelleromo
I…understand what you mean. But he was already planning on removing the filler anyways, before this review, because I remember him asking us (the readers) if we thought it would make it a better read. I guess now he has a very good reason to do so and to do so immediately. And I understand how the subjects of rape and incest can make people feel very squicky, but I'm not going to get on his case about that. I do agree with you about his anime arguement, though.

Sounds to me like the guy has no idea about pacing and flow. If he has to ASK his readers if he should remove the filler, then he seriously needs to reconsider his story telling methods. Look at some of the most popular comics out there. Girl Genius and Schlock Mercenary for example, neither have filler and both are excellent examples of how to tell a story. Add a page every ten or so pages that says sorry, no update, too busy. Then try and stay in the story. That's what's happening with Mob Ties and its filler. I won't address the story issues here, but I will gladly point them out if anyone asks. Back to the filler issue, no one likes filler, and it is the second best way to lose readers, next to having an incredibly boring story. I stopped reading Megatokyo because of it. I stopped reading Applegeeks because of it, and I stopped reading Mob Ties because of it.

Chelleromo
Secondly, and I know this has been said, the characters are Japanese. Mika is almost-legal by Japan's standards. AN was trying to make Mob Ties so that the comic was actually following Japan's standards. As he already mentioned, she was originally 18, but changed her age to 15 because it's a plot point that she's not yet a legal adult. If Mika was 18, then this entire claim doesn't have any ground because she would be well-over legal. I know you hate it because he's supposedly pushing some sort of pro-pedophile agenda (which isn't correct, because Mika is NOT pre-pubescent. The correct terms would be either hebephilia or ephebophilia depeding on how far along she is in her adolescence.) and is out to burn our eyes with his criminally under-age character's naughty bits, but in reality, I hate to tell you, he's not.

This has already been addressed by Dark Pascual, it's values dissonance. Modern western culture has eighteen as the general age of adulthood and thus, the age of consent. A sixteen year-old wed to a thirty, thirty-one year-old is going to creep people out. Yes I have known people to be married and have this large of an age gap, but those people were in their thirties and fifties. Hark and Kev are not Japanese, they are not going to overlook something like this when the art and the story are as weak as they are.

As for calling An a pedo, I don't recall anyone calling him a pedo. Hark and Kev just said that using a fifteen year-old in fan-service shots was inexcusable. As they said, it's one of their buttons. As I've said, Mob Ties reads more like a parody and is probably has the most inappropriate tone for seriously addressing these issues that AN mentions. Before you start typing your rebuttal to this I'd like to point out that MT is currently classified as a comedy, and that there is a page at the beginning of the beach arc that has sixteen year-old Mika running towards the reader and having the comic equivalent of a slo-mo jiggle shot, complete with the jiggle sound effect. While we are discussing the beach arc, there is the page with Mika saying they should all get naked, the page which has a teenager squeezing Taro's breasts, the several pages that had several of the female members of the cast with naught but the wind between them and God, ans the page that had Mika's bathing suit falling off of one shoulder. That's just one arc and that's just what I could remember. As far as I can tell none of us have called AN a pedo, but the comic does have some unfortunate implications in it.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more contrived the excuses for the plot become, the more slap-together the plot feels, and the weaker AN's argument seems.

VegaX

Author_Ninja
As for my art. It's my style. Don't like it? Bite me. I've been drawing like this for 24 years, I'm not about to make a drastic change.

This made me laugh.
Sure, he's got arrogance oozing out of his ears, but i found the complete lack of desire to improve pretty fascination. How can anyone draw the same for 24 years and not be able to improve or not want to? Strange.

Should have seen my post on page two about that. Just look at the difference in 5 years, which is shorter than Mob Ties's run I believe.

VegaX
As for the comic, well i HAD to check it out after all this fanatic “twilight” fan stuff going on but i had to stop after a few pages. Not my thing.

I think that after the string of bad comics, Hark and Kev just saw the fan-service and just blew the rest of the bad stuff out of proportion. They have some good points and the fans of the comic had some good counter points, but AN just poured liquid oxygen on the smoldering mess with his response on page one and the post in his own forum. Honestly, both sides are at fault, me included, and things just got real ugly.

Salsa
…

As for calling An a pedo, I don't recall anyone calling him a pedo. Hark and Kev just said that using a fifteen year-old in fan-service shots was inexcusable. As they said, it's one of their buttons. As I've said, Mob Ties reads more like a parody and is probably has the most inappropriate tone for seriously addressing these issues that AN mentions. Before you start typing your rebuttal to this I'd like to point out that MT is currently classified as a comedy, and that there is a page at the beginning of the beach arc that has sixteen year-old Mika running towards the reader and having the comic equivalent of a slo-mo jiggle shot, complete with the jiggle sound effect. While we are discussing the beach arc, there is the page with Mika saying they should all get naked, the page which has a teenager squeezing Taro's breasts, the several pages that had several of the female members of the cast with naught but the wind between them and God, ans the page that had Mika's bathing suit falling off of one shoulder. That's just one arc and that's just what I could remember. As far as I can tell none of us have called AN a pedo, but the comic does have some unfortunate implications in it.

…

You don't always have to say things out loud. That's just the impression I, personally, gleaned from part of their points. I should have clarified that.

And I guess I'll just never agree with you or Hark or Kev because I see nothing wrong. I'm not bothered by the fanservice in Mob Ties, because I don't see it as fanservice. And, as you already know, I am not bothered by Mika's age. All of this is because I don't think the author is selling porn, I don't think he's writing smut, and I don't think he's condoning rape, incest, child pornography, et cetera. I just like Mob Ties because I find it entertaining and fun. I don't think there's anything wrong with making jokes about breasts or sex or anything, because these aren't real people and they don't exist once I exit my browser.

That's just me, though. I don't claim to speak for anyone else.

Chelleromo the comic is about lusting after an under age girl.
You yourself describe her as almost legal. The key word there is ALMOST!
Almost legal is ILLEGAL!
And that is illegal by Japan's rather sexist laws for letting young girls marry. By western standard (ie the standards of the culture of everyone posting here) it is sick and wrong.
The fact you followed it up with demanding we correctly categorise “hebephilia or ephebophilia” makes this debate start to seem funny.
Sorry if I was being offensive to perverts, but to me if you want to look at naked 15 year olds, you are a sicko. You can give that any technical/pc term you want, but to me someone who does that is a sicko, end of story.
I know this might sound weird, but I am attracted to adult women and not attracted to children. Weird I know.
And can you all give it a rest on this “15 is practically adult!” BS? Are you trying to make this comic seem sleazy? I swear you Mob Ties fans do a better job of painting yourselves as perverts then I ever could!

I read it after all. So here's my opinion, and I'm generally fairly accepting and laid back.

It was not my cup of tea, it didn't really interest me, but I can understand how others would read it and enjoy it without them being perverts.

First off. Art. Not particularly impressed, but I was not really negatively effected by it. It could do with improvement, but most things can. I'm not exactly a fan of the manga exaggeration style that seems to come up; ie, Burns size changing constantly, isn't he 6'4 or something?

Fanservice. I glaze over when it comes to things like this. There were parts I found disturbing, I'm not letting the comic off the hook, but I tend not to notice unless it's in your face. Some of it was in your face, like Ryu's (the brother) soon to be ex wife shoving overly large breasts onto glass. Please, no. And the bath preparation scenes etc were… well… ech for me. Too much, thank you.

Filler. Thank goodness AN is getting rid of that already.

Story. Personally I think it should have ended at around issue 16 or 17 after Bengal is first revealed. It does seem chopped up and slapped together, but I understand some liking it. There are some heartwarming moments, and I think the author is probably sincere in saying the story is about family and coping with tragedies etc; rather than being meant for pedo creeps. That may not always come through unfortunately. Overall, it ain't no Lolita or Catcher in the Rye. I don't particularly like it. But that is my opinion on it, others have different opinions and I refuse to automatically villanize other's who hold the opposing opinion by just calling them pedophiles (or whatever the correct term is); I demand more evidence.

I did like the line “Ow my favourite spleen!” but I suspect that is another Manga cliche.

Here's my main problem with it, and it is something the author admits as well, it isn't actually original. A lot of the comic seems to be drawn from other manga, maybe due to the fact it's supposed to be a parody of manga but might take itself too seriously. There's nothing new or all that interesting there for me. Sure, maybe asking for originality is a bit much, but oh well. I found Charby the Vampirate, for example, more interesting because I find it very original. I wonder if that is ever going to be reviewed here… Nah. It's not on the list. And for those attacking Harkovast (the comic). I like it. You don't? Too bad, don't read it. I think it's original, even if it's high fantasy!

And if most of the manga/anime that Author Ninja reads/watches bears similarity to, or takes some of the more disturbing aspects of the comic to greater degrees, then I will not read/watch them. And I advise that Hark and Kev don't either. Doesn't make Author Ninja a pedophile though.

1. Harkovast, please don't go insulting other people's cultures just because you judge them by Western Standards to be wrong or morally offensive or whatever. I'm sorry if Asians offend you.

2. I only “demand” you correctly categorize because that's just my personality and how I act. Are you going to mock me for my personality?

3. Why do you assume I want to look at naked 15 year olds? I'm just not bothered by Mob Ties's depiction of Mika, but that doesn't mean I want to have my own little harem of underaged tweenies to have my way with. I know this sounds weird, but the world isn't neatly divided into two people, the “perverts” and the moral upstanding citizens such as yourself. Some people just don't get their panties in a bunch over fictional characters.

4. I'm just trying to teach you something about a culture other than your own. Not everyone sees the world the same way as you, Harkovast. I'm suprised someone as mature and moral as yourself hasn't learned that yet.

Canuovea
….

And if most of the manga/anime that Author Ninja reads/watches bears similarity to, or takes some of the more disturbing aspects of the comic to greater degrees, then I will not read/watch them. And I advise that Hark and Kev don't either. Doesn't make Author Ninja a pedophile though.

No one called him a pedophile. That's just what I assumed they were saying based on the way they were talking and the review itself. Sorry for the confusion.

Chelleromo
1. Harkovast, please don't go insulting other people's cultures just because you judge them by Western Standards to be wrong or morally offensive or whatever. I'm sorry if Asians offend you.

2. I only “demand” you correctly categorize because that's just my personality and how I act. Are you going to mock me for my personality?

3. Why do you assume I want to look at naked 15 year olds? I'm just not bothered by Mob Ties's depiction of Mika, but that doesn't mean I want to have my own little harem of underaged tweenies to have my way with. I know this sounds weird, but the world isn't neatly divided into two people, the perverts and the moral upstanding citizens such as yourself.

4. I'm just trying to teach you something about a culture other than your own. Not everyone sees the world the same way as you, Harkovast. I'm suprised someone as mature and moral as yourself hasn't learned that yet.

Um, dude. I don't know if you've noticed, but Hark's right. There's only one person out of almost 100,000 members that is currently residing in Asia, and I believe she's an American studying or teaching abroad. By the culture of everyone here, Mob Ties contains some pretty racy material of an under-aged girl. Hark also has another point about Japan and Asia in general having more sexism in their culture. The Japanese word for wife is literally “Mrs. Back-of-the-house.” That's not an insult it's a fact that Japan generally holds men in higher regard than women. It's not necessary to use the technically correct term when the rest of the western world, and those in English speaking countries in particular, uses the general catch all term. Insisting that one does so, is not only pretentious, it makes you look like an ass to others. Pedophile is the term used by most people to describe a person, who is of age, having sexual contact or desiring to have sexual contact with a person who is not of age, and it is perfectly acceptable to use that term to describe someone who wishes to have sexual contact with a sixteen year-old. As for your third point, I believe that the depictions of Mika in Mob Ties happen to fall under the category of fan-service. Said fan-service is one of Hark's and Kev's buttons. Mob Ties may not be porn, but it skates pretty damn close to it, especially during the beach arc. Finally, there's your fourth point. If you have ever read Harkovast then you will probably notice that one of the cultures is based on Asian culture in general. He probably knows some things about Japanese culture. Saying something like, “I'm trying to teach about other cultures,” is, again, pretentious and serves no purpose beyond making an ass of yourself.

Have a nice day.

Chelleromo
1. Harkovast, please don't go insulting other people's cultures just because you judge them by Western Standards to be wrong or morally offensive or whatever. I'm sorry if Asians offend you.

I don't think Hark was insulting a foreign culture as much as pointing out how some of Japanese values and laws clash with his point of view.

By your same logic, nobody should make criticism of the mysoginy of fanatic Muslims or the bigotry of extreme Christians. It's part of their culture, after all. I know I'm making a HUGE exageration here, but I don't think that we should just say “Oh, that's how they roll over there” when we see a cultural trait that by our view is not acceptable.

That's the risk of trying to portrait certain aspects of certain culture to an audience foreign to said culture: It will rub some people the wrong way.

They may understand it, but they don't have to accept it or be fine with it.

In this particualr case, the element that some of us really don't like about THIS comic is the portrait of a grown man lusting after a teenager.

I know that teens do have sex, and sometimes do have sex with adults, and a lot of men just jerk off to Miley Cyrus pics, and that many teens are very good looking.

Does that mean that I have to found it acceptable? Oh no.

Adults lusting after teens are creepy, and quite frankly, a little bit pathetic.

Besides, some people seem to think that Hark and Kevin (and those of us who agree with this particular review) are saying why you shouldn't read this comic.

We're merely pointing out why we didn't like it…

These ‘so called’ reviewers are assholes! Bloody adult lovers the pair of em.

This is one of the best comics I have ever read. I would be willing to put up some of my own fortune to fund the live action movie of the comic's deep and engaging plot points.

Author_Ninja
And once you are married you are OLD ENOUGH.

LISTEN TO THE MAN!!!! I am recently moving to parts of Ethiopia and Nigeria, where quite a number of girls are married before the age of 15 and some girls are married as young as the age of 7.

7 I tell you. OLD ENOUGH! Old enough to get married means old enough to take it up the trumper.

Author_Ninja, I love you. Almost as much as the 7 year old I am going to marry.

Ifelldownthestairs is a Paedophobe. Harkovast is a kiddydiddler hating fascist.

Gary Glitter
These ‘so called’ reviewers are assholes! Bloody adult lovers the pair of em.

This is one of the best comics I have ever read. I would be willing to put up some of my own fortune to fund the live action movie of the comic's deep and engaging plot points.

Author_Ninja
And once you are married you are OLD ENOUGH.

LISTEN TO THE MAN!!!! I am recently moving to parts of Ethiopia and Nigeria, where quite a number of girls are married before the age of 15 and some girls are married as young as the age of 7.

7 I tell you. OLD ENOUGH! Old enough to get married means old enough to take it up the trumper.

Author_Ninja, I love you. Almost as much as the 7 year old I am going to marry.

Ifelldownthestairs is a Paedophobe. Harkovast is a kiddydiddler hating fascist.

I'm seriously not sure whether this was meant as a joke or not?… but hey


I Laughed my ASS off readin' it XD

Salsa
Um, dude. I don't know if you've noticed, but Hark's right. There's only one person out of almost 100,000 members that is currently residing in Asia, and I believe she's an American studying or teaching abroad. By the culture of everyone here, Mob Ties contains some pretty racy material of an under-aged girl. Hark also has another point about Japan and Asia in general having more sexism in their culture. The Japanese word for wife is literally “Mrs. Back-of-the-house.” That's not an insult it's a fact that Japan generally holds men in higher regard than women.

I know Asia in general is more sexist than other places. My brother is the “favorite” of the family because he is the one boy in my household and my mother places an emphasis on the fact that he will carry on the name, et cetera, et cetera. It's not her fault, she loves all her children, but she was raised with the mentality that places an emphasis on a male heir. I really don't care regardless, and I only bring that up to explain that it's not necessary to explain that to me.

Salsa
It's not necessary to use the technically correct term when the rest of the western world, and those in English speaking countries in particular, uses the general catch all term. Insisting that one does so, is not only pretentious, it makes you look like an ass to others. Pedophile is the term used by most people to describe a person, who is of age, having sexual contact or desiring to have sexual contact with a person who is not of age, and it is perfectly acceptable to use that term to describe someone who wishes to have sexual contact with a sixteen year-old.

I never insisted. I put that comment in parantheses, if you'll notice. I was just trying to clarify that for people, as I do in real life. I'm sorry if my ass-ness showed through, because I am a know-it-all snob in real life and constantly correct people. Obviously that's going to come through on the internet as well. Sorry for the pretentiousness.

Salsa
As for your third point, I believe that the depictions of Mika in Mob Ties happen to fall under the category of fan-service. Said fan-service is one of Hark's and Kev's buttons. Mob Ties may not be porn, but it skates pretty damn close to it, especially during the beach arc.

See, your opinion versus mine. I don't find it racy, or dirty, or anything. I don't care if you think the same way as me, but I respect your opinion. What I DON'T respect is Harkovast telling me I'm painting myself as a pervert because I read a comic and try and defend it. Actually, I think my only problem IS with Harkovast. His language is incredibly rude and childish, especially when he says “I know this might sound weird, but I am attracted to adult women and not attracted to children. Weird I know.” I personally took offense to this, because he is, once again, implying that everyone who reads Mob Ties is a pervert out for some underage lovin'.

I had only a few problems with the review, even with me being a fan of the comic, but most of my problems were the way people were treating both sides. Fans were flaming, and then everybody was attacking everyone else. People like yourself and Dr. Luck and others were trying to make valid points, then everyone just got crazy. I don't appreciate you calling me a pretentious ass, Salsa, but I can't argue with you, even if it was a bit unnecessary, as I feel I have been pretty civil thus far. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Salsa
Finally, there's your fourth point. If you have ever read Harkovast then you will probably notice that one of the cultures is based on Asian culture in general. He probably knows some things about Japanese culture. Saying something like, “I'm trying to teach about other cultures,” is, again, pretentious and serves no purpose beyond making an ass of yourself.

Have a nice day.

I read parts of Harkovast and, despite the very attractive coloring, it really wasn't something I liked. I'm just not into Redwall-type stories, with the animals and the war and whatnot. And, again, I'm sorry for making an ass of myself.

Thank you, and I will. =)

Dark Pascual
…

By your same logic, nobody should make criticism of the mysoginy of fanatic Muslims or the bigotry of extreme Christians. It's part of their culture, after all. I know I'm making a HUGE exageration here, but I don't think that we should just say “Oh, that's how they roll over there” when we see a cultural trait that by our view is not acceptable.

Sorry, but I don't make criticism of the fanatic Muslim or the bigoted Bible-thumper. I'll joke about it and laugh at it, though.It's their culture. I'll try and change their mind, if that's even possible, but I won't fault them for being raised a certain way and having it repeatedly beaten into their skulls that one way is the right way and any other way is certain death. I don't think we should invade other people's cultural traits because they don't fit our standards. That's just my opinion, though.

Dark Pascual
That's the risk of trying to portrait certain aspects of certain culture to an audience foreign to said culture: It will rub some people the wrong way.

They may understand it, but they don't have to accept it or be fine with it.

….

We're merely pointing out why we didn't like it…

And I'm merely pointing out that I don't like being called a pervert for having an opinion.

Chelleromo
Sorry, but I don't make criticism of the fanatic Muslim or the bigoted Bible-thumper. I'll joke about it and laugh at it, though.It's their culture. I'll try and change their mind, if that's even possible, but I won't fault them for being raised a certain way and having it repeatedly beaten into their skulls that one way is the right way and any other way is certain death. I don't think we should invade other people's cultural traits because they don't fit our standards. That's just my opinion, though.

So you're not allowed to disagree with stuff? That's about the most perverted thing I've ever heard.

Chelleromo
And I'm merely pointing out that I don't like being called a pervert for having an opinion.

Oh. Sorry.

ifelldownthestairs
So you're not allowed to disagree with stuff? That's about the most perverted thing I've ever heard.

Hahahaa, well I guess it sounded like that, didn't it? What I meant is that I don't try to Westernize things. I may disagree with them, but I'm not going to force them to change their lifestyles and culture BECAUSE I disagree with them. I will definitely state my own opinion, though probably not to the super-radical-woman-hater Muslim. I enjoy living.

ifelldownthestairs
Oh. Sorry.

And I'm sorry this turned into some sort of freakish poo-flinging war. I really just wanted to pop in and state my opinion, but I got a little caught up in the excitement. You two really don't seem like bad people, but Harkovast just hit a nerve, I guess. A nerve that shouldn't have made me upset, but a nerve nonetheless. I realize both sides aren't going to change their opinion based on one person, so this entire “debate” doesn't really need to exist.

At least you're getting some activity in the forums, right? =)

Yeah, I'm kinda over the debate at this point, which in all honesty collapsed on itself long ago. And yes! It is nice when one of our threads is bumpin' like this.

ifelldownthestairs
Yeah, I'm kinda over the debate at this point, which in all honesty collapsed on itself long ago. And yes! It is nice when one of our threads is bumpin' like this.

Hey, considering that nobody here ended calling nobody's mother, I said this was among the most civilized Internet discussions I've ever being.

Chelleromo
I realize both sides aren't going to change their opinion based on one person, so this entire “debate” doesn't really need to exist.

Well, the point of a debate never should be trying to convince or preach to nobody. It should be merely an exercise of opinion statement.

In that regard, I think that this was a highly positive thread.

However, we can call each other fags and dykes if you prefer…XD

Chelleromo
See, your opinion versus mine. I don't find it racy, or dirty, or anything. I don't care if you think the same way as me, but I respect your opinion.

As do I. I understand where you're coming from a little bit. I try to be civil, as you'll see, I have countered a few of the points Hark and Kev made in the review and here. I understand that I did cross a line by calling you a pretentious ass. I also understand that you don't like being called a pervert, neither do I. Hark is a friend, maybe not a good friend, and definitely not a close friend, but a friend non the less. I hope you can understand that. I may have come off as a troll, but it takes me getting rather miffed for that to happen. What I can't grasp however is how is this:

not racy?

That's not racy. Girls have nipples in Japan. Deal with it.

ifelldownthestairs
That's not racy. Girls have nipples in Japan, Salsa. Deal with it.

I know that! I was talking about the painted on swim suit and the jiggling.

Shesh. Sometimes people think I don't know nuthin'! XD