ozoneocean wrote:
Yeah, it must just be a cultural difference and I can sort of see where it comes from now: You're American, that's your own history, so of course it will always have far more personal resonance to anyone from there.
Idiotic of me not to have seen that. I always miss the obvious. Always!

I don't know about that. I still think Bravo's position on this is nuts, and I'm a lot closer to him(geographically) than you are.

One side had their lives, lifestyles, and land stolen. The other side got a new place to live, although some of them also lost their lives(far fewer). Not equal.

Hippie Van wrote:
I don't know about that. I still think Bravo's position on this is nuts, and I'm a lot closer to him(geographically) than you are.
One side had their lives, lifestyles, and land stolen. The other side got a new place to live, although some of them also lost their lives(far fewer). Not equal.

But that's what I said. The indians committed terrible acts of murder and mutiliation but since the whites could not respond effectively on the battlefield they set out to destroy a people and their way of life. And succeeded and would not stop when enough was certainly enough.

Stalin summed it up with his quote about one death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic. One white death was a horrible tragedy that the whites responded to by starving hundreds. But just because the whites won that doesn't mean that the indians were not expert practioners of terror warfare, torture and mutilation. Just because the Soviet army raped its way across East Prussia in 1945 doesn't excuse the Nazis from the horrors of the Holocaust. The fire bombing of Dresden doesn't excuse the massacres of prisoners of war by the Nazis. The destruction of Hiroshima doesn't excuse the rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death march. Or does it?

Oh screw it, yes, Hippie Van I am quite nuts. Certifible in fact. I am on all kinds of medications but it doesn't seem to help my scewed view of things.

bravo1102 wrote:
Stalin summed it up with his quote about one death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic. One white death was a horrible tragedy that the whites responded to by starving hundreds. But just because the whites won that doesn't mean that the indians were not expert practioners of terror warfare, torture and mutilation. Just because the Soviet army raped its way across East Prussia in 1945 doesn't excuse the Nazis from the horrors of the Holocaust. The fire bombing of Dresden doesn't excuse the massacres of prisoners of war by the Nazis. The destruction of Hiroshima doesn't excuse the rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death march. Or does it?



Oh screw it, yes, Hippie Van I am quite nuts. Certifible in fact. I am on all kinds of medications but it doesn't seem to help my scewed view of things.

To be clear, Bravo, I don't think you're nuts. I almost always respect your point of view and the research that you put into everything. I just meant that I don't understand your theory here. Your argument seems to be just that both sides did bad things, without taking into account motivations, causes, or results. The Soviet army responded to a threat, as did the natives; the white settlers created a threat, as did the nazis. Yes, both opposing armies did bad things, but we don't say “Well, the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis.” If the conclusion is just that all people are capable of terrible things and should be held responsible whether their side wins or not, then I can agree with that. If the conclusion is that because of this, neither side is worse than the other, (that there is no “bad guy”) then I don't agree at all.

I don't really want to have a massive argument/debate. I just wanted to make it clear that yours isn't the North American Perspective, which seemed to be what Ozone was implying.

P.S. I sent you a PQ.

I'd never say it was the “north American” perspective! No no no! That's what I said the thing about each culture/country (whatever) having their own histories and myths that they hold dear and why I said that even though Australia is close to New Zealand I could never understand their relationships and history with their native people like they do.

It's like this: How you respond to and view the history of your nation is also tied up wiith how you see yourself. Those things are part of the creation myths of your own culture, central to who you are as a human in your place in the world.
So people with different backgrounds can't really see things exactly the same way.

For Hippie it's stuff about fur traders, French and British settlers etc.
For Bravo there's stuff about British settlers and many wars between different groups…
Product Placement and Gullas have their Viking explorers and ancient democracy.
For me there's British and Irish settlers, explorers, etc.

But others don't see things the same way and we can't expect them too:I've probably mischaracterised all your cultures in those brief sketches and all you guys probably know about Australia are convicts. :P

I was actually just watching a documentary that ties in nicely with all this from National Geographic called Guns, Germs and Steel. It's not too in-depth, but it addresses the conflict between Europeans and Americans during the early stages pretty well. There was also a recent Cracked.com article discussing much the same subject that had a few notable points, especially so given that they're a comedy website. I'll dig it up when I have a spare moment.

And PP, since I don't really want to try and get the quotes to work right. I'd just noticed a sudden significant increase in the vitriol I've been seeing, even on normally pretty sedate and polite boards. It's mostly on other forums and sites though. Of course, any lively discussion on DD right now almost counts as something of note.

Hippie Van said: If the conclusion is just that all people are capable of terrible things and should be held responsible whether their side wins or not, then I can agree with that.

That's what I meant.

@Iba I was going to reference the Cracked article but decided not to as I have read all the works it's based on. I should have saved myself a lot of effort and just linked to it and left it all alone. But leave it to me to choose an opinion in an attempt to draw people out.


Talking of revisionism , when the revisionist view has conquered the historiography and non-historians are suddenly shocked by things academics decided years ago, isn't it time to update the texts that still teach the old view point? The texts held dear in our schools are often representing what is now known as wrong-headed mythology as history to please one interest group or another.


———
So with generic medications I don't knwo what I'm taking. One reads about people taking and abusing drug X, and I think I'm safe because I'm taking “Y” Except I now discover the “Y” is the generic of drug X and it can do other things than what it was prescribed to me for. I get a well known sleeping pill prescribed to me for anti-anxiety? Well, if I ever have any sleeplessness I have something to take.

It knocks me out and that's a good thing and I wake up rested if not a little dizzy. But then unless the barometer is in perfect shape I'm always just a tad dizzy.

Where did I read the other day that all history is “revisionism”? -in that history is constantly being sifted through and turned over, told from one perspective and then another, looked at in all sorts of different new lights constantly, one point of view or reading or theory gains favour and then another takes its place and so on and on forever.

So the history of history is constant flux. You might know all the important works on a subject but after a while that knowledge will be out of date so that all you know is the history of the history of that subject.
It's quite intriguing! ^_^
Cracked is a cracked source. I remember when they said Viking religion was basically a myth because it was all reconstructed from only a single source and nothing else, over a century after Christianity had taken over. (Snorri Sturluson)
Which was basically not even a Wikipedia level of research. It's basically equivalent of a young teen reading a kid's book on the subject and glancing at the appendix.
The reality was that not only were the old ways still very fresh in the minds of many country folk at that time, there was another massively important source in Saxo Grammaticus, as well as the contemporary accounts of Arab traders and Romans, as well as the archaeological evidence.
Cracked is a great example of writing toward a specific perspective, choosing the facts that fit. Often it can be very novel and interesting, but can't really be relied upon.

Just because the writer in question didn't check all his sources for a favorite topic doesn't mean he didn;t learn his lesson and check his sources this time out. As I mentioned earlier I didn't link to the article because I had read all the works he sourced and it is becoming the accepted canon. Much of the recent 400th anniversary work being done for Jamestown and upcoming for Plymouth all concur with what is said in the Cracked article. There is a great deal of archeology being done especially in Virginia that overturns the old views of Native Americans. My favorite one is that the great burning of forests in North America to support the slash and burn agriculture of the huge native populations may have put so much ash into the air as to contribute to global cooling in the 14th Century.

Then there's that recent aerial surveys of the Amazon River basin indicate that many parts of it appear to have been designed and just don't flow the way one would expect an aboriginial river in a pristine forest to run. The Amazon rain forest may the overgrowth of a complex system of channels and terraces for agriculture and trave, Just like the huge engineerig projects of Cohokia and the Central American Indians. These peoples quite literally moved mountains and peoples that live in harmony with nature usually don't feel a need to completely redesign the landscape. Native Americans did.

Found this strip to be strangely appropriate with the recent conversation:

ozoneocean wrote:
Cracked is a cracked source. I remember when they said Viking religion was basically a myth because it was all reconstructed from only a single source and nothing else, over a century after Christianity had taken over. (Snorri Sturluson)
Which was basically not even a Wikipedia level of research. It's basically equivalent of a young teen reading a kid's book on the subject and glancing at the appendix.
The reality was that not only were the old ways still very fresh in the minds of many country folk at that time, there was another massively important source in Saxo Grammaticus, as well as the contemporary accounts of Arab traders and Romans, as well as the archaeological evidence.

Still, it was a relatively fair assumption to make. Most of the theological knowledge about the Viking gods comes from the Edda. Without that book, we'd probably be utterly ignorant about the Viking creation myth and most of the minor gods. At very least, it painfully points out how much knowledge about them is lost to us. There are allot of references to gods that are briefly mentioned but never heard of again. An entire pantheon is brought up, the Vanir, who our only reference about is the Aesir/Vanir war, that possibly suggests a merger of two religions at some point in the Viking history.

Snorri did a very necessary job of collecting these orally preserved stories from the last pockets of knowledge about the faith, during its final death throes.

In that regard, I consider the age of the Sagas, when our most famous works of literature were written down to be a moment not unsimilar to when the Grimm brothers collected all those folklores, thus preserving them in print. People who were credited for writing these books were in essence only serving as catalogers, documenting stories passed down and developed by generations of storytellers, rather than authors themselves.

lba wrote:
And PP, since I don't really want to try and get the quotes to work right…

Can't blame you for that one. It can easily turn into a giant pain in the butt. You can't, for example, post images under quotes. For some reason, it causes the entire text from the start of the post to where you placed the picture to disappear.

bravo1102 wrote:
peoples that live in harmony with nature usually don't feel a need to completely redesign the landscape.

Obviously, you've never played Minecraft.

First shift at my new job today. I was quite nervous but I ended up doing pretty well, I think. It's hard work, though - I'm glad it's short shifts.

Wow… you guys are busy while I'm gone… Just two things from me that you guys might have written in but I'm dyslexic so the long posts look like a large swirling mess and are hard to read:
1. Wasn't it the Europeans who taught the native Americans to scalp as proof that they had assassinated the people they told them to?
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2. One thing I find no one really talks about is that the first nations weren't really the first nations. There is actually a lot of proof that there were other civilizations all throughout North America (though Mexico probably has the most proof of this) earlier than the first nations. They are pretty much ultimately wiped out.
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I think the big thing I'm trying to say is that yes, history is written by those who win, not by what's right. Want proof? Richard III. But as far as I've SEEN in life (realizing entirely that given perspective no one can be 100% sure that something is true) No one in life is ever entirely innocent. The state of the First Nations reserves is appalling for anyone right now. They're actually considered “Third World” by medical schools and I'm ashamed of that. In fact, the thing that got me into aviation business management at first was trying to find a way to ship goods up to the Northern communities for a cheaper price.
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That being said, there are things that could be done by the first nations people as well that could greatly help there situation. I don't know how many stores there are up north that have near no one run them because no one wants to apply for a job. I think the big thing that worries me is that by letting our guilt (as much right as we may have for having such guilt) give aid to the first nations like we do… are we actually hurting them further by making them feel they should be entitled to such aid?
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I honestly don't know how to fix the problems in the first nations… it's a mess really… but the more I've studied it the more I've realized that “pity” never really ends well.
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Anyways… after I write a huge long post after saying how hard they are for me to read, that's basically my two cents on it… DON"T KILL ME!

Hippie Van wrote:
First shift at my new job today. I was quite nervous but I ended up doing pretty well, I think. It's hard work, though - I'm glad it's short shifts.

I'd want to have shorter shifts, but if there's one thing I can count on my job(fishery) is that you can't count on how long you are going to work. Luckily our shifts have lately been very 9-5 ish (more like 7-3 but still…) but that might change when we start to work the herring and mackerel, hope they won't be red though…

On a lighter note, I'm officially admitting I'm in over my head on this Java course. I know I don't ACTUALLY need the credit but I really would love to learn how to use Java. Does anyone have any tips on how to comprehend this stuff better? I'm getting a touch confused with all these Classes and Methods and Constructors and objects etc

I don't know if I'll get rats again. They're sweet and sociable so you get attached to them, but they don't live very long. Poor little Ringo is well over 2 years old now(I'm not sure how old exactly) and his back legs don't work very well any more. It makes me so sad to see him having trouble getting around.

The first time I heard “first nations” was on “Death comes to town” (Kids In The Hall).
Australian Aboriginals are sometimes called “The First Australians”. The literal meaning of those names aren't important, but the intent is. It's meant to be something assertive, positive and lend some gravitas and authority to people that have precious little: First Australians, First Nations etc.

————————–

I went to see a Burlesque show tonight. I decided to dress up to the nines-
Silk top hat, shirt with starched front and cuffs, detachable collar, gold studs to fasten it all, black waistcoat with silk facings, a silver pocket watch on a chain in the pockets, tailcoat with silk facings, soft grey tweed Oxford bags style trousers, brown leather shoes with white canvas spats. And top top it all off a black antique cane with a silver top!
-Oh, and an overcoat over my shoulders, white satin tie around my neck, white silk scarf, and white suede gloves!
(pics in the photo thread)

It's not correct white-tie by any means, but prefect for seeing a show!.
The show was sexy, funny, and fantastic.

The stage magician came down to compliment me on my outfit after his performance, then the glamorous, sexy lady MC came down to invite me on stage as one of the “best dressed people”. I one first prize as the best dressed male!
^_^
A $100 voucher at a restaurant/club.
What a night!
My head has swelled.

That's awesome, ozone!!

In a weird contrast, I was kicked off the bus today after being mistaken for a vagrant.

I had a BBQ today, yup it's hot over here.

Banes wrote:
That's awesome, ozone!!


In a weird contrast, I was kicked off the bus today after being mistaken for a vagrant.

You must live somewhere in a very fancy city or something. Where I live, you don't get kicked off the bus unless you're causing trouble.

Where I used to live you didn't go on a bus unless you were looking for trouble :P

Banes wrote:
That's awesome, ozone!!

In a weird contrast, I was kicked off the bus today after being mistaken for a vagrant.

That's terrible! This should not happen to my faithful comrade in Quackcats!!!!
I must take you in hand and get you measured up for a new suit of clothes…

…hahaha! says the person who assembled most of his fancy duds from a long series of e-bay purchases…
If I had more spare cash and time I would LOVE to go a get measured up and order a bunch of outfits to be specially made for me….
ONE DAY! >:|

@HIPPIE VAN -

It HAS gotten a little out of hand around here. Anyone without a monacle and valet is automatically viewed with suspicion.

@OZONE -

Thanks man! Well, whatever doesn't kill us makes us much weaker, I always say!

Genejoke wrote:
I had a BBQ today, yup it's hot over here.

We also had a BBQ, but it's getting cold here (Winter is coming). The BBQing is because our kicthen STILL isn't complete yet (due to a delay with the benchtop). Sigh.
Wife: ‘Are those sausages done yet?’
Me: ‘I’ve got no idea.'
Wife: ‘Why not?’
Me: ‘Because it’s dark and I can't see them.'

Banes wrote:
@OZONE - whatever doesn't kill us makes us much weaker

Agreed!
I've often thought the same thing… Nietzsche's comment doesn't translate well outside of mental fortitude.
Adding “emotionally” to the original quote would sort of ruin the manly stoicism a bit :(

Beginning to adjust to the heat now, which is good as i had a few very miserable days just sweating and being uncomfortable. Guess I should get on with all the things I've been meaning to for the last few days.

@Gunwallace: I always say that you've never really had a bbq until you've bbq'd in a blizzard. It's great as you are constantly checking the burgers mainly so you can stay warm. Plus it takes real skill to use tongs with mittins on!

We had a beautiful sunny day today, probably around 13-15C but sadly we're not having BBQ only pizza. Meh… food is food.

In other news, me and my brother, we both are guitar players, have been practicing for a family reunion. He plays classical guitar while I'm more of a blues/jazz player and it's kind of funny to see how much he looks up to me, although he'd never publicly admit that one…

Macattack wrote:
@Gunwallace: I always say that you've never really had a bbq until you've bbq'd in a blizzard. It's great as you are constantly checking the burgers mainly so you can stay warm. Plus it takes real skill to use tongs with mittins on!

Then I guess I'bve never BBQed ;-) Mittens would add an element of danger, especially if flammable.
No blizzards in these parts.
Although I have BBQed in a summer thunderstorm once … being very carful never to raise the spatula above my head. The rain came down so hard the meat was almost floating on the grill. :-)

Another Memorial Day weekend has come and gone. Sunday my relief at work called out because her bird had died. The young lady has a menagerie of animals and this bird was one of those long-lived ones that becomes a house guest as opposed to a pet. So when she called she was very upset and crying.

Some tenents upon hearing this immediately though she was faking. I replied “She's not that good an actor.” The performance was too good to have been faked unless she was Meryl Streep. Other than that it was the usual parade of drunks wandering in that have to be escorted up to their rooms and the usual noise complaint. Seems someone is on a diuretic and has to go to the bathroom during the night. When she goes she just scoots across the bare floor in her dining room chair making the noise of nails on a chalkboard. Like what do you tell the person? Oh well. Just document it and pass it along.

I dunno what's happened to the Quackcast this week… Maybe you guys in the US have a long weekend or something, but it's just a single file that has to be uploaded and pre-written notes that need copying and pasting.
I don't get paid for doing those, they're done in my fucking free time. Banes doesn't get paid either. I was up till 2am on Sunday night recording it and up till 1am on Monday night editing it and doing notes.
If a person can't take 5 minutes out of their little bloody holiday… I sacrifice thousands of hours of my own personal free time for this site, and more…

You know sometimes… I dunno.
Sometimes I think we need new admins here to take over instead. People who're more with it and current with the site, such as it is.

Hey Oz, I'm not quite sure what it is that went wrong but I myself would be willing to at least help out in the next couple of months. I should be having some more time in a week or two, mail me and I'm at your command.

I'm quite sure everyone appreciates everything you, as an admin as well as a Quackcast hero, have done for the site. I know I have! Maybe you could take some time off and appoint someone else to do a series of Quackcasts.

- - -

Would everyone go here:
http://www.drunkduck.com/forum/topic/175181/