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Lonnehart at 4:53PM, Sept. 26, 2012
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Ah, yes… the Tracks vs Legs argument.  Both have their merits, I think.  I bet a lot of mecha have what I call the LPS (limb positioning system).  It's just the same as when we use our legs.  We don't think about positing the foot here or the knee here when we're moving fast.  Our brain just gives that instruction to them and all we have to conciously think about is where we want to go and how we get there.
 
There's a reason why only one super robot is out there and why the military can't simply mass produce them.  They're often created by a single team of people with lots of resources, and with care taken to make them very durable and the pilots are selected for their special qualiteis.  Not any pilot can sit in the seat of a Super Robot.  Military created versions of Super Robots never seem to fare as well.  In the Mazinger series the tech was given to the military.  They mass produced the technology, but using cheaper materials and less than qualified pilots.  Or in the anime Gravion, where the tech was stolen by the government (via an insider).  They tried to duplicate the tech only to find themselves outdone by the stranger alien enemy units and Gravion had to go in and save them
 
I'd say though that in the real world Pinky's two legged armed mech would be great as a shock trooper even if it is a giant target for rocket launchers and vulcan gatling guns…
bravo1102 at 5:43AM, Sept. 27, 2012
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In the real world Pinky's mech would look really cool up to its waist in soft sand or snow or mud until a KV-1 lumbered past with those marvelous wide tracks and destroyed it and then punched holes in a few mired tanks with narrow tracks.

Try playing Panzer commander rather than mechs sometime and find out why wide tracked tanks with heavy guns rule the battlefield and would shoot the legs off a mech at long range with ease.  You could not armor the legs enough to stop tank rounds or ATGMs and still move. Impossible if you want any decent ground pressure.

Think lobster or crab on the ground as opposed to a mammal.
Lonnehart at 2:01PM, Sept. 27, 2012
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Anyone remember that German attempt at a really REALLY HEAVY TANK?  I think it was called “The Mouse” or something… the thing was so heavy it even sunk into the pavement…  I forget what gun that thing had on it though…
bravo1102 at 11:33PM, Sept. 27, 2012
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Lonnehart wrote:
Anyone remember that German attempt at a really REALLY HEAVY TANK?  I think it was called “The Mouse” or something… the thing was so heavy it even sunk into the pavement…  I forget what gun that thing had on it though…
Maus with a 120mm main gun and a coaxial 75mm gun.  There was also the E100 (for 100 ton tank) and the Allies not to be outdone the British built the Tortoise and the US the T-28.  It led to a whole series of experimental US vehicles to see if 120mm and 155mm guns could be mounted on tanks as a practical weapon like on the JS-2/3.  The French had the AMX-50 prototype. 
Good books on it is R.P. Hunnicutt's Firepower: The History of the US Heavy tank and Pershing: The US T20 series. 
 
 
Speer and Gudarian both considered the Maus and E100 cloud cuckooland flights of fancy and tried repeatedly to have that waste of resources cancelled.  A chassis of the E100 was built and two or three Maus were built and used oerationally against the Russians in 1945.  Considering the length the Russians had gone in wartime to develop the JS seeries heavies with their 122mm gun and the “Cat Killer” SU-152 it was really moot.  Though it did lead tothe Allied scramble mentioned in the previous paragraph to build a 120mm gun armed tank.
ozoneocean at 2:04AM, Sept. 28, 2012
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You made some pretty faulty assumptions back there Bravo-
 
-I know about weight distribution, what I meant was that I don't know how to calculate it based on surface area… but I suppose it's not actually that difficult really, I just wasn't in the mood for maths at the time.
 
- Tracks are indeed very complex; not conceptually but technically. There are many, many moving connected parts. Things have to work right or they go wrong. They're only “simple” to fix because of decades of refinement and engineering to make it easy. And as you know they're prone to damage.
 
- Would legs be as prone to damage? As prom that you would have to carry spares?
100% speculative, but I don't think they would. You can build them to be extremely robust, have few moving parts, and to operate largely passively as has been shown in  experimental builds of many legged robots.
- You're thinking of legs in the same was as tracks, that's not a good assumption. How many field repairs does your average tank crew have to do on the transverse mechanism of their turret or the elevation system of the main gun? The legs would fall into that category.
 
————-
 
Now Pinky's mecha is a little different.
My idea there isn't for Trompers to replace tanks in any way, there's no logic to that in the Pinky TA world. The idea is for them to have their own niche.
In the comic they're able to be amphibious and totally submersible. On land their speciality is picking creative paths through extremely rough and uneven terrain to get into places that you can't get any other vehicle. They're armed to go against infantry, light fortifications and light vehicles. (both versions seen in the comic so far: the SSV5 from the early chapters and the SBV6 from chapter 7 onwards)
 
Their armour is too light to go head to head with tanks - because of that submersible requirement - and they stand so high they're easy targets. In fact a few 20mm rounds would demolish them pretty fast. Even 50cal rounds if they're hit by enough in the right places (windows, rear hull, either gun pod, top hull).
The only time one goes up against a tank and wins is because it was a surprise attack, that any infantryman could make with a similar rocket weapon.
 
With Pinky's Trompers I was thinking about evolutionary weapons systems -
There is no be all and end all device, systems are always in competition and development. There's only a small window wnd specific circumstances when most things are ever really truly superior till something else comes along and changes everything.
My thoughts were focussed on the early tank development from WW1 onwards. Originally armoured vehicles were just a way to protect troops long enough to get them into position. Going into WW2 there were thousands of light tanks from the '30s vulnerable to man portable heavy rifles or small field guns and heavy machine guns!
Trompers are much like those.
  
As for being caught in the snow or some such - that sort of thing would be down to the pilot and their own ability and judgement. No weapons system is indestructible or immune from user error or accident or even back luck. There are right and wrong way to use things and even the most complicated well engineered and expensive systems get trashed all the time.
Trompers are probably about a similar level of complexity to a basic helicopter. ^_^
- For a totally made up weapons system!
 
last edited on Sept. 28, 2012 4:53AM
bravo1102 at 2:58AM, Oct. 1, 2012
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ozoneocean wrote:
I can see how this debate can go on with geeks and nerdy gamers but it doens't last long among actual people who know and work with tanks. It'd go on forever on some forums but one devoted to AFV model building the legs would crash and burn in minutes.  Tracks are the easiest thing in the world.  There is little to no complexity in their design.  It's amazingly simple and incredibly old.  Soviet track really is stamped or cast scalloped metal held with pins. It was like that 100 years ago. Modern track goes back to the 1930's.  There's been nothing new or astounding since the 1930s! The design of the track on the M1 is only a progression from that of the M26 in 1942 which is only a simple redesign of something developed in the 1920's.
 
No tanker in his right mind would want to have to maintain a suspension as complex as the turret hydraulics and to suggest adding soemthing like that to their workload is utterly unrealistic and yet another reason it will never be done outside of fiction.
 

It works when everything is very, very wrong.   Can that leg still support weigth and move with 50% of it missing or damaged? (As in a number of road wheels just missing, suspension arms inoperative and track runs decreased because of operational concerns)  A tank suspension can.  I've done the Battle Damage assessment and repair training.  

 If you've seen or experienced anything like I have with tracked vehicles in the army and then in construction, it's so simple and you as an operator don't have to do a damn thing.  Could legs be made to work with maintenance being a handful of grease points?  Ever maintain the arm on a backhoe?  And a backhoe isn't weight bearing and necessary for movement.  
Imagine a vehicle that had something akin to four backhoe arms as legs.  At least four times as many working parts leads to at least four times four more breakdowns and an increase in maintenance time and down time of four times four as least. One problem with one joint and it's done and you can't go three legged let alone two legged.  You'd end up with a centipede with ten legs per side so you could and then you might as well have ten wheels so you're back to tracks all over again.  That's how things workin the real world with brain dead tankers.  You can't write a comic about that because it's so mind numbingly boring. 

They've tried legs again and again  It doesn't work as simply and as well as tracks or wheels and you can't train a lunkhead idiot like me to maintain it with minimum effort like you can tracks and wheels.

Sadly I'm not the mechanics I've known over the years and live, eat and breathe this stuff and they all agree with me and we're all mind numbingly brain dead because we've played with this stuff and breathing in the hydraulic grease we're just stupid but we know what works and what has worked since before 1916 and it isn't legs.
  
last edited on Oct. 1, 2012 3:10AM
ozoneocean at 12:56PM, Oct. 1, 2012
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Yes Bravo, I've sure horse cavalry were pretty sure they knew what worked and what always would forever and ever because it'd been the standard since before the Egyptians…
 
I'm Not dismissing your expertise and experience, but you are sounding a little too conservative there. Technology changes all the time and none of us can know what'll come next.
Maybe antigravity hover-tanks??? o_O
 
———
 
Quackcast will be a day late because I am buggered. Had a migraine today and couldn't finish the edit.
The song sounds horrid. I tried and tried but Audacity is not great for music mixing, especially to a total neophyte like me. Also I can't play music at all and barely understand how to make it. My bongo drumming sounds ok though… to deaf people.
 
Atom Apple at 7:15PM, Oct. 1, 2012
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I'm mad that there are no more names on the bottom of the forum, I enjoyed looking at my gargantuan name loom over the peasants.
i will also like to know you the more
Lonnehart at 3:38AM, Oct. 2, 2012
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heh… went to sleep at my computer while listening to that song “Gangnam Style”… and dreamt of a music video called “Drunk Duck Style” with Pinky doing the lead vocals with a moderate Aussie accent.  Worse… I was animating it… O_O
 
And then there's this…
Klingon Style (Gangnam Style Parody
Careful of all the hate comments found there…
last edited on Oct. 2, 2012 3:41AM
bravo1102 at 8:47AM, Oct. 2, 2012
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Updated through the end of October whoo-hoo!  I'm also working hard on improving my work habits so I actually get more photography done every week and not just Thursday night before I go to work.

There are times when I rush through a photo session so I'll have pictures to edit while sitting at my station at work.  If not it gets so incredibly dull.  Though a couple of residents have started using me as their psychologist and those sessions go on and on.  I can see now why professionals limit themselves to 40 minutes to an hour.  Otherwise people would jsut go on forever and a day.  But the good thing is that I have eight hours of time to fill up and if someone is willing to talk and talk during the dead hours of the early morning I'll listen.  But not to insomniacs go on and on about how they can't sleep.  Can't sleep?  Lie in bed more than half-an-hour without sleeping?  Get up.  Don't torture yourself with worrying about not sleeping when your body gets to the point where it can't go on without sleep, trust me, you will sleep.  
It's amazing how many people of note in history got along with very few hours of sleep.  You sit and wonder how they got everything done that they did and you find out they rarely slept more than a couple of hours at a time.  History is full of them.  Most of the great military leaders of history didn't sleep much, though Wellington was known to catch catnaps whenever possible.  He'd usually sit under a tree during the day with the latest issue of the London Times over his head.  But he'd be up all night.  Grant would meditate for hours while whittling, a cigar in his mouth but he rarely slept more than a handful of hours a day.  Some sleep studies show that meditation can actually replace a complete night's sleep with the brain even going into REM during it and awaking refreshed.  But insomniacs don't want to hear that.  They're so much into the eight hour a night mantra we're all fed that they don't realize what an oppurtunity they're losing by not sleeping.  If only they knew what to do with all the extra time they now have.
ozoneocean at 11:04AM, Oct. 2, 2012
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Atom Apple wrote:
I'm mad that there are no more names on the bottom of the forum, I enjoyed looking at my gargantuan name loom over the peasants.
Me too :(
 
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@lonne- she has a faint German accent she was speaking a few Quackcasts ago :)
 
Speaking of Quackcasts, finally finished it and re-did some stuff with the song… but oh that finished product…
I love the Quackcast because it shows how amazingly untallented I am at anything but drawing ^_^
 
bravo1102 at 3:57AM, Oct. 4, 2012
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So some of the ads I get have adchoice arrows in the corner.  So I click it and it explains to me that my interests and clicking determine the ads that run.  Okay, I'll go with that, but where did they get the idea I speak Spanish?  Wouldn't a stray click on something in Spanish indicate that I spoke or read it?  Except I never have.  Right.  
ozoneocean at 7:26AM, Oct. 4, 2012
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You wife have been lookeeng at hot Cuban guy on you computer!
Oh no Lucy!
 
 
bravo1102 at 6:16PM, Oct. 4, 2012
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  Lucy, ju got some 'splaining to do!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZlLQLFq_H4&feature=related

At work two maintenance guys are named Ricky and Richardo respectively.  Needless to say one of the residents' fav entertainers is a Lucille Ball tribute performer.  
last edited on Oct. 4, 2012 6:19PM
ozoneocean at 8:31PM, Oct. 4, 2012
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Lucy and Dezi were the best team. That really was the very best version of her TV shows…
I did sort of liked the later ones too when I was little, since I grew up with them on TV here, and that Lucy puppet in the opening credits was tres sexi! …but the guy who played her boss was such a dick. I hated him.
 
Call Me Tom at 7:01AM, Oct. 5, 2012
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We have 15 days till 24 hour comicbook day!
PIT_FACE at 9:06PM, Oct. 5, 2012
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Call Me Tom wrote:
We have 15 days till 24 hour comicbook day!
wait, already? since when?…
Call Me Tom at 9:11PM, Oct. 5, 2012
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PIT_FACE wrote:
wait, already? since when?… 
Sinice I looked up 24 hour comic book day 2012!
gullas at 7:13PM, Oct. 6, 2012
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I'm still stunned that we somehow managed to squeze 8 people at one point in my room today (a d&d session)….
Lonnehart at 2:45AM, Oct. 7, 2012
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gullas wrote:
I'm still stunned that we somehow managed to squeze 8 people at one point in my room today (a d&d session)….
Next thing I know you'll be bragging about having a clown car!!!  >:-D
bravo1102 at 11:37AM, Oct. 7, 2012
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gullas wrote:
I'm still stunned that we somehow managed to squeze 8 people at one point in my room today (a d&d session)….
When it comes to role playing games all occupancy requirements are off and you can fit eight people into tiny room place with dice.  But D&D is best played at a table with a nice flat area for the DM to set up all the miniature monsters so he can watch the Player character figures dance around them.
gullas at 11:51AM, Oct. 7, 2012
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Well bravo we did have some room to spare, just for that.

@Lonnehart, not too many clown cars around here but I am desperatly looking ;)
ozoneocean at 8:00PM, Oct. 7, 2012
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This is a great site for coming up with techniques to demolish anyone in an argument:
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/home
^_^
 
It's like the “kick in the nuts” schhol for dirty arguing… even if that isn't how it's supposed to be used.
 
————–
 
Banes and I are planning our new Magnum Opus: Bottomless waitress!
We have lots of great ideas and I've done the first concept sketch… with and without apron.
Oooh errr!
 
bravo1102 at 12:43AM, Oct. 8, 2012
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gullas wrote:
Well bravo we did have some room to spare, just for that.

Make certain you keep the pizza crumbs and beer bottle caps out of the battle area!  
Lonnehart at 3:35PM, Oct. 8, 2012
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bravo1102 wrote:
gullas wrote:
Well bravo we did have some room to spare, just for that.
 Make certain you keep the pizza crumbs and beer bottle caps out of the battle area!  
But then they wouldn't be able to fight giant ants and roaches!  :)
bravo1102 at 4:28AM, Oct. 9, 2012
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ozoneocean wrote:
This is a great site for coming up with techniques to demolish anyone in an argument:
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/home
^_^
It's like the “kick in the nuts” schhol for dirty arguing… even if that isn't how it's supposed to be used.
A kick in the nuts in a logical debate would be a logical fallacy of itself.  An ad hominum?  Genetic?  Attacking the source rather than the premise?

Again a product of that source of logic, reason and good thinking over at Free Inquiry and Skeptical Inquirer and of course they're not perfect and therefore fall below our expectations so should be dismissed even if they are right.  No amount of evidence will change my opinion because it is mine formed in my head by me so it is inviolate to any and all assaults especially those by any kind of logical reasoning and evidence to the contrary.

Just buy me a cup of coffee and I'll spare you my opinion. Buy me lunch and I'll agree with everything you say.
ozoneocean at 4:51AM, Oct. 9, 2012
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Of course it can be bad when people fall back on those techniques instead of having a decent, rational debate, but my point is that if you want to win then use all of them -
- NOT because you're defending your ingrained opinions, that's boring, rather because you're arguing any position at all that you feel like arguing and you want to win, because that sort of thing can be fun! ^_^
 
Instead of a debating ninja, you become a debating bar fighter.
 
Call Me Tom at 3:37AM, Oct. 10, 2012
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Well I just had to drive a car for the 3rd time this year. Goodnes I hate driveing.
 
 Anyhoo we now have 10 days till 24hour comicbook day!
Lonnehart at 8:20PM, Oct. 10, 2012
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Wow… had a bad dream about how I became very rich.  So what's bad about that?  Well..
 
I created a female version of Combattler V…  it had an all female crew commanded by a hot blooded male hero.  To make matters weird, all the girls (one really smart girl, one an expert with firearms, one big girl who is actually a pro wrestler, and one girl that's as close to normal as you can get with a team like this) all were pining for their leader who didn't bother looking at them. Why?  His… orientation… doesn't point that way.  Instead he would be trying to ask out all the bishonen enemies he and his team ends up defeating….  yeah…
 
I should get my brain examined so I can find out where my overactive imagination comes from…
Lonnehart at 2:39PM, Oct. 11, 2012
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Mass Effect Multiplayer has some new enemies to deal with.  And I'm not talking about the return of the Collectors.  I ran into some new Geth units my last time out.  They were brutal.  They act like drones, shocking you and such.  What makes them deadly is that if they get close enough they drop a ton of grenades on you.  Pray you can run fast enough to get out of that mess…
 
And today is the first time I've seen a Volus wielding firearms AND biotic powers… “Biotic God” indeed…
 
Another wd of warning: The maps now have weather effects (outdoors) and environmental hazards(indoors).  I had to fight in fog conditions in one outdoor map (making sniping and long range attacks dicey) and avoid the reactor core in that one indoor map as the doors can close and fry anything inside.  Useful against enemies, not so great if the enemy closes the doors on you…
last edited on Oct. 12, 2012 2:16PM

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