Debate and Discussion

Who's Old?
ayesinback at 6:03PM, Jan. 23, 2012
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So - for those who don't know, I'm probably a lot older than many of you.  
 
Recently, my daughter shared a video a friend of hers made in which this friend stated how he hates “old people”.  It was very funny.  In his recount, these “old people” commandeered the center of the shopping aisles, with arms that were ready to disintegrate without notice. (Really - just a horrible shopping experience for any one there at the time.)
 
When I was a teenager, I thought someone 30+ was old.  They were set in their ways; too occuppied with establishing/maintaining a career and/or family life.  And then I got into my 30s and realized - oh -  30 isn't old.
 
I began to see “old” as someone who harked back to earlier days - and corresponding ways, instead of accounting for where a present situation resided.  Or someone who insisted on a one-size-fits-all resolution without imagining what something might look like a year, or ten years, from now.
 
“Old” became:  Someone who doesn't change.
 
And when I started looking at old that way - someone who doesn't change, all of a sudden an accounting of age went out the window.  I saw some very old people in their 20s; and I saw some very young people in their 70s.
 
Chronologically - I can't deny that I'm “old”. (It FREAKS me out).  But I put it to you - I think I Might be younger than some of you.  Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part (if only that there might be politicans out there with “youth” and “seasoning” - it's one of my more optimistic fantasies), but if you pride yourself on your assuredness, on your consistency, how young do you think you are?
 
Are you “old”?  Why or why not?
under new management
ozoneocean at 7:31PM, Jan. 23, 2012
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Yeah I'd go along with that and it's not the first time I've come across that rationale:
Being “old” isn't about chronological age, it's about giving up, being conservative in your thinking (which is reflected in most of your other habits too), stopping where you are and not going any further.
 
This accounts for most of the classic features people associate with “being old”:
Dressing:
-old people that dress in a horrible, ugly, yet comfortable manner; could be tracksuit pants (sweatpants), shoes with zips or Velcro tabs, “fleece” jackets, big shapeless Mumu tape over-dresses… Usually always in neutral, bland, ugly colours.
Old people dress that way because it's comfortable. They're not out to impress anyone, or create a scene. It's also cheap, and it's easy- not just to wear but to buy, not much choice involved.
There isn't anything wrong with that at all and it makes a lot of sense! But they also do it because they've given up on caring about those things that concern younger people:
Creating an impression etc.
 
-Another thing about old people dressing is when they do dress to impress:
They stick with styles that were popular when they were young.
Old men don't wear their trousers high because they're old, no. Only a certain group of older men wear them that way, the reason is because that was the style that was in fashion back when they still cared about fashion. It was a transition style from trousers designed to have braces (suspenders) that were always tailored high because they were worn under waistcoats.
When belts became more popular and people no longer wore waistcoats, trousers went lower…
 
Anyway…
 
Old lady hairstyles:
Many old ladies have the same hairstyle- short, curly, white or grey… and this is because it's easier to manage and bother with than long hair. Also, most other older ladies have their hair the same way and conservative thinks don't like to stand out.
 
 
There's more, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being old, or behaving or acting old. There's a place in this world for everything. We need safe conservative thinkers as much as anyone else. There is a real value to that sort of stability, just so long as it don't always obstruct. :)
I am very old and stodgy in a lot of my thinking and habits I think, but very young and stupid still in many others.
 
bravo1102 at 12:54AM, Jan. 24, 2012
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Change is a constant.  Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves and will spend the rest of their lifetime left behind.  Many do not notice things going on around them because they are preoccupied with ephemerals and no longer grow in knowledge or experience.  Hense to someone of a more dynamic, eyes open attitude they're “old”  The world still turns and the galaxy still expands and staying young is staying aware of that expansion and being able to adjust to change.
 
Sadly most of the older men who wore their trousers above their navels are entering their nineties.  The old guys I see usually have their beltline below the huge belly because they grew up in the 1950's wearing jeans around their hips.  A teen in 1956 is today's 72 year old.  That “bad boy” James Dean with the leather jacket now wears pants that are too big to fit around the shrunken hips and are pulled up over that part of the body where they fit with a sweat shirt proclaiming the names of their grandchildren as they pull themselves behind their walker, their watery eyes hidden under the brim of an oversized hat labeled “Pop-pop”  Those velcro sneakers are because they can't tie laces anymore.  The muu-muu house dresses are because they can't manage anything harder than just pulling it over their head and doing up one or two snaps.  And even then they're mismatched leaving some very scary glimpses through the resulting gaps.
 
You can't get nice slacks over the adult diapers very well and it makes it that much harder to change the diaper.  Home health aides like “easy” so sweats and house dresses it is.  The seniors would love to dress up, but they are incapable of dressing themselves with buttons and ties and laces and even zippers.  Since no one else will dress them up they dress the best they can manage.  Those that can dress up are very proud they still can and there is an elegance that is missing among the kids who don't seem to know where the brim of their hat belongs in the oversized tee shirt, pajama pants and Ughs.
ozoneocean at 4:17AM, Jan. 24, 2012
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Bravo. After that great incisive first paragraph you expand upon a small portion of what I was talking about with more specifics and greater detail, but without the same focus on the Ayes' concept of “Thinking old/Thinking young”.
 
The point was that not all old people are “old”, but that certain traits we associate with being “old” are symptioms of “old” thinking, while others are for the reasons you've gone into more specifially.
 
Abt_Nihil at 7:56AM, Jan. 24, 2012
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Well, there's the way people look older, and there's the way people behave older. We have attributes like “mature” or “wise”, which suggest higher age, but of course can be attributed to young people. I particularly remember an instance when somebody called me mature in high school, and I really liked that as a compliment. But I don't think my mind was ever really “young”, for better or worse.
bravo1102 at 1:50AM, Jan. 25, 2012
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Forgive me that I don't spout oh so deep philosophy with every word I type.  Sometimes I just make observations.  That they are not deep or go with some great point doesn't matter as they serve to illustrate the reality behind flawed perceptions.  My point was( which I never actually stated getting all into description) you can feel young and act young but still dress old out of entirely practical considerations that have nothing to do with chronology.
 
Many seniors only wear that they wear because that's all they can manage to get on by themselves. But then there's my mother.  Having worked in clothing retail all her life she wears what she sells and is fashionable for someone in her eighties.  She's aware of the changes and has changed with them over the decades and that includes her clothing. People who see her remark in how young she looks and acts.  No one would ever call her frumpy and old, quite unlike my brother's mother-in-law or even increasingly his wife.
 
Then there are those who try to look young long after the bloom has gone off the rose.  There is a projected self image as well as the internalized self-image.  Some people see incredible age when they look in the mirror and try to make up for that in various ways.  Others accept those wrinkles and grey hair and act how they feel and not what they look like.  The old saw of the aged guy with the sparkle in his eye and dance in his step.
 
Conversely there are the teens who act as if they were eighty and under the weight of a lifetime of sorrow when the worst thing that ever happened to them was their goldfish dying.  Meanwhile the 90 year old guy with the spring in his step survived the Depression, World War II and several stints and by-passes and only wears his pants that way because they won't fit any other.
Hawk at 9:25AM, Jan. 25, 2012
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Seeing TV shows and movies that have protagonists younger than me makes me feel a bit old.  I know there are the usual movies about kids, but when it's an action movie and all the adventures are happening to somebody seven years younger than me, I start to wonder if I've missed that era where I could jump out of an exploding helicopter and save the world.
 
Then I rememeber these are just stupid movies.  Still, I always worry about passing that age where all the best stuff happens to you.
gullas at 9:38AM, Jan. 25, 2012
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Talking about “old” I do remember when I was around 9 or 10 years old, we were learning history. One of it was that people in Iceland used to live in wooden/grass hovels often with dirt floors. These living conditions were….bad and I recall that these types were actually being used untill the mid 20th century.
Naturally when I came home I simply asked my grandmother if she had lived in this sort of hovel when she was young, my grandmother turns sixty in two years from now so naturally she was not “happy” about it but we have a laugh about it from time to time. But at that time I thouhgt she was the Oooooooldest person I had ever known.

Now my great grandmothers have all passed away and feel lucky to have met three of them in my lifetime. The death of the one who was closest to me (in distance that is to say) had always been a strong person, outgoing, energetic and hard working. When her mind started to deteriorate (probably Alzheimer but we'll never known) it really stung me. This had always been a nice person, known my name, showed up at family birthdays etc. and now when I visited her in the elderly home (was playing some songs with guys on accordion), I was nobody she had met. She vaguely remembered my mother, but that was about it. 
She later suffered from thrombosis, whent to a coma and finally after a good month her heart failed. She was about 82 years old.
After all, I think I don't want to become like that. Having my body and mind deteriorate  because that to me is the dark side of becoming old. Sure some people age well, live activively well into their 90's or longer and some are virtually dead by the age of 60. So being “old” is not neccicerely the age, and with advanced technology who knows how old we will get, but to me it is the “status” (physical and mental state)  of induvidual. 
bravo1102 at 1:35AM, Jan. 26, 2012
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Hawk wrote:
Seeing TV shows and movies that have protagonists younger than me makes me feel a bit old.  I know there are the usual movies about kids, but when it's an action movie and all the adventures are happening to somebody seven years younger than me, I start to wonder if I've missed that era where I could jump out of an exploding helicopter and save the world.
 
Then I rememeber these are just stupid movies.  Still, I always worry about passing that age where all the best stuff happens to you.
Conversely I am increasingly noticing actors and actresses who are going strong and looking great and then I see their ages and so many are forty-somethings.  There is only so much an airbrush and botox can do.  It's an inspiration. 
 
 Though of course an actress I graduated High School with has made herself five years younger on IMDB and two people who had known her in HS called her out on it.  She recently had some work done and the laugh lines she had since HS are now gone.  If she had looked as good in HS as she did before her surgery… but now?  Whoa. 
 
That was something that blew my mind when I first went on Facebook and hooked up with the people I had known in HS.  Most looked better now than they had when 18.  There was something about becoming a fully responsible adult that had somehow completed them as people and made them look better than they had in the supposed full blush of youth.
 
The older I get the more I believe that youth is wasted on the young.
gecko200 at 5:40PM, Jan. 27, 2012
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I am over 50 …by a few years. I wear t-shirts and cover them up with a jacket or a shirt because my biceps bulge in most of my t-shirts. I can still do 50 or 60 pushups at a pop and I try to get in 10 or 20 chinups everyday . I moved an 300 lb. file cabinet at work the other week because the guy half my age and by his definition football strong couldn't move it (he said I  cheated) So I'm strong. not strong for my age , I"M STRONG! Thinking outside the box and believing in myself and not the me that society says my age says I am helps. Am I blowing my own horn? Maybe , but you 've got more than enough people who want to tear you down so think outside the box, stay young in heart and the rest will follow.
kyupol at 12:42AM, March 24, 2012
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old? 
To me its more about your spiritual age than your physical age.  You can physically be in a 16 year old body but your mind can be more advanced than that… or vice versa.  you can be physically a 50 or 60 year old but your mind still operates like a juvenile.
Ive seen both cases. 
NOW UPDATING!!!
lba at 9:15PM, April 2, 2012
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I'm boredly thumbing through forums at this point because I'm avoiding work. and I've never agreed with kyupol until now which gives me enough pause to comment.

I'm personally an ancient old fogey, not even out of my mid-20's. I've always been a responsible guy for my age, but what made me old was experience. I've had several friends die as a result of America's current wars, been forced to take care of a toddler before I was even out of school ( Not my own, but circumstances ended up in me playing dad as her godfather for almost a year. ) and various other things that lended themselves to me growing up very quickly.

At the same time, I've learned to understand that it's a comparative thing. The vast majority of my classmates from college are just now getting their first jobs in the career field we're trained in, a couple years after graduation, and/or beginning to raise kids, whereas our parents were doing all that about 5 years earlier than us. So I've just come to realize that a lot of my generation is having a hard time growing up, not only because we were allowed to be kids for several years longer, but because we got help into a holding pattern when the generations before us didn't retire and give up their jobs like the generation before them did. My old roomie hit 30 before he finally managed to get a job in field as a photo-retoucher, which is a pretty low-end design job, and he's almost a decade older than I am. I'm by no means a part of "generation millenial' or whatever the current group of 18-22 whatevers is, but my generation has had a lot of the same issues.
Product Placement at 5:12PM, April 9, 2012
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You're all old.
 
Kids that were born when Aladin came out can vote today.
 
Pokemon is a well over decade old brand.
 
And:
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on April 17, 2012 1:15AM
El Cid at 7:35PM, April 9, 2012
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I have to admit I have no idea what the kids are into these days (besides getting high off of household chemicals, but then that's always in style!)
ozoneocean at 9:39AM, April 12, 2012
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Product Placement wrote:
You're all old.
 
Kids that were born when Aladin came out can vote today.
 
Pokemon is a well over decade old brand.
 
And:
 
 Your pic is broken :P
I grew up back when Star Wars was still cool. I feel privileged. Kids today grew up when Star Wars was shit. That is impossible to change.
Me = WINNING!
 
last edited on April 12, 2012 9:40AM
Product Placement at 8:39PM, April 12, 2012
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ozoneocean wrote:
Your pic is broken :P
 
Hate when that happens.
Edit: Razen frazen, image crapping on me again.



I would give million bucks to be able to travel back in time, just to be able to be in a cinema of the opening night on Empire Strikes Back and feel the reaction in the room when Darth reveals his little secret.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on April 17, 2012 1:10AM
JillyFoo at 1:31PM, April 26, 2012
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When I was a kid, I used to believe that old women automatically get curly hair.
I feel kinda old at my job now. The navy mostly has 19 year olds just starting out. I'm starting out at 26 and the people my age there already have kids and/or getting divorces.
I don't think it's too much of a bad thing. I know what is smart to do and what would get you in touble. I'm for the most part not being annoying about it by not giving advice if not asked.
bravo1102 at 6:35AM, April 27, 2012
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Product Placement wrote:
 
I would give million bucks to be able to travel back in time, just to be able to be in a cinema of the opening night on Empire Strikes Back and feel the reaction in the room when Darth reveals his little secret.
 
I was there.  Man, you heard “NO!” in unison with Luke from half the audience and “Holy shit!” from the other half.  It didn't even cost $10 to go to the movies and have popcorn back then.
lba at 9:34AM, April 30, 2012
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JillyFoo wrote:
When I was a kid, I used to believe that old women automatically get curly hair.
I feel kinda old at my job now. The navy mostly has 19 year olds just starting out. I'm starting out at 26 and the people my age there already have kids and/or getting divorces.
I don't think it's too much of a bad thing. I know what is smart to do and what would get you in touble. I'm for the most part not being annoying about it by not giving advice if not asked.
The Army is pretty much the same so far in my experience. I spend most of my time wanting to tear my hair out and start trying to guide them to the smart thing, but I don't because I'm not supposed to. It makes me feel old every time. At least until I turn around and look at the rest of the people in my age group and go “thank god I'm not getting divorced after 3 years.”
ozoneocean at 8:15PM, April 30, 2012
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JillyFoo wrote:
When I was a kid, I used to believe that old women automatically get curly hair.
  
 
 Yeah, it's funny how people in certain age groups all mob the same styles of appearance and way of acting. There's this thing globally that 90% of women of a certain age all have mostly the same short hair style and wear trousers etc… But then I suppose there's decent logic to it- that kind of thing is more utilitarian and practical, which is why men do it. After a certain age practicality wins out over flare…
All guys my age here have short hair and many have shaved heads because they're balding. They mostly dress alike, but then they like always dressed alike since they were little kids.
 
On that note, the saddest thing an adult can do is dress like a kid to stay “with it” and fashionable. The lamest thing they can do is simply conform to the blandest ideal of what they think their age group should look like. The best, I think, is to get your own style.
 
And it's not just something that's unimportant, superficial either. Quite the contrary- humans are a highly evolved social grouping species, dress and appearance is at the same level as primary sexual characteristics and language.
 
Dress and style that conforms makes it much easier to be part of your group, giving you a neutral status. Not conforming, depending on how it's done, can separate you, lower your status, or even help include you and raise your status.
-exactly the same as military uniforms work, but in an informal way.
It's quite interesting, but way off topic :(
 
last edited on April 30, 2012 8:52PM
bravo1102 at 11:42AM, May 1, 2012
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I'm still trying to figure out “age appropriate” attire for middle-age.  Am I supposed to dress in a suit and tie all the time or the aloha shirt, jeans and flip-flops?

There is another great reason to shave one's head as you reach a certain age besides the receding hairline.  How about if all the hair you do grow on your head is grey.  I keep threatening to shave the head but the wife always dissaudes me at the last possible moment.

If my joints would stop reminding me that I'm approaching 50 I would feel so much younger. 
ayesinback at 9:36AM, May 2, 2012
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There is no escaping physical deterioration.  We can modify our physical habits to prolong better performance of “the machine” - but the machine is built to eventually break down.
 
I have a peculiar sense of my own body.  We co-exist.  I feed it, clean it, rest it, medicate it.  Now and again we walk each other.   I need it and it needs me, and so I take care of it, and have for years.  For the most part, it's done very well for me (altho cartwheels have always been out of the question).
 
So when it starts giving me a hard time, I have a double reaction.  First, I'm pissed off:  “I've been taking care of you – behave!!”  And the second is the realization that it's breaking down because it's old.  “But I'm not old!!” I insist to myself.  At least I don't feel old.  
 
For example, I took my lovely 20-20 vision totally for granted and then hit 40.
It was like someone flicked a switch.  Seemingly overnight I couldn't read OTC medicine bottles.  There was no trauma.  My eyes had just gotten to the point that they could not function at the same level.  So now, like any three-year old with poor vision, I wear glasses.  It doesn't mean that I'm old.  But it does mean that my body cannot perform as it once did.
 
Somehow accepting that reality without freaking out about it is one of the aspects of older people that I respect more and more, especially as I become more entrenched in that population each day.
under new management
last edited on May 2, 2012 9:37AM
bravo1102 at 2:13AM, May 3, 2012
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ayesinback wrote:
For example, I took my lovely 20-20 vision totally for granted and then hit 40.
It was like someone flicked a switch.  Seemingly overnight I couldn't read OTC medicine bottles.  …
Somehow accepting that reality without freaking out about it is one of the aspects of older people that I respect more and more, especially as I become more entrenched in that population each day.
Having worn glasses to see my entire life, I now have to take them off to read the medicine bottles.  Funny I can't see my hand in front of my face without them, but now with the eyes hardening my close vision is getting better.

Sadly most of my aches and pains cannot be tied to the years but the mileage just like Indy saying “It's not the years it's the mileage”  I'm pretty good about handling the normal wear and tear pains of getting on in years but the hard miles I've put on the poor thing that have really made the old body a bit worse for wear.  I can tie nearly every pain to a specific hard time I've subjected my body to.  And now it's all catching up with me.  

I am more resiliant than I used to be.  

But that last bit about the elderly dealing with age without freaking out?  Not in the population of the building I work in.  I see various “freaking out” on a daily basis.  They're not the majority but they're enough to make life all the more miserable for everyone else and it seems they enjoy making life worse for everyone else.  It makes for great comedy.
ayesinback at 4:57AM, May 3, 2012
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bravo1102 wrote:
But that last bit about the elderly dealing with age without freaking out?  Not in the population of the building I work in.  I see various “freaking out” on a daily basis.  They're not the majority but they're enough to make life all the more miserable for everyone else and it seems they enjoy making life worse for everyone else.  It makes for great comedy.
Oh – I'm not saying that aging with grace is the norm!  That's probably why I respect it so much when I see it.
 
Several of the elderly I know seem to share a common belief that providing me with an update on their bowel activity as soon as we start chatting (whether it's been a few days or a few months) is something I either need to know about or want to know about.  au contraire.  
 
I truly hope that if I reach that age I will still have something more interesting to chat about, other than those crap politicians in the DC monkey chambers  (because frankly, “back in my day” they were already monkeys – but that's getting off topic).
under new management
ozoneocean at 6:59AM, May 3, 2012
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Yeah… When people chat about the bums or injuries, illness, or operation. Gawd. Time for suicide.

As I get older I worry that I get more boring, dull, and cynical, but then I remember that I've been getting lke that ever since I turned 15, I've always been like that!
 
bravo1102 at 12:38AM, May 4, 2012
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When one has severe problems with one's digestion and removal of waste it's the greatest relief for a return to normal.  So like little Billy the first time he uses the toilet by himself one feels the need to share the experience.

Before the hernia and the diverticulitis I never wanted to hear about it.  Now it's a great way to bond with the seniors I work with.  Imagine having a condition common in 60 year olds when you're 35.  It shakes up any preconceptions one may have about age and discussing digestion.

It really readied me for part of my current job of calling maintenance when the seniors inevitably reap the results of their high fiber diet and that greasy fried grease they have spent a lifetime eating; a clogged toilet.  One learns the meaning of the term insoucience as one wades into it to determine the seriousness of the situation.  Somehow I think plumbers keep their pants low enough for one to see their butt-crack as sweet revenge for all the shit (literally) they have to deal with.  “I have to fix your toilet surrounded by your bodily waste, you get to see my asscrack. Fair trade.”

It makes for great comedy and it's no mystery why successful comedies always have those token aged members of the ensemble.  Even funnier when it's described in Yiddish or by Betty White.  Yes, Golden Girls becomes laugh out loud funny after a certain point in one's life.
ozoneocean at 12:56AM, May 4, 2012
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I have a working theory that the older some people get, the more their world and interests shrink, till it consists entirely of their own body and nothing else.
 
lba at 5:44PM, May 4, 2012
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Knowing what my grandmother was like, I'd agree with that. She got pretty sour once my grandfather died. Her major hobbies were complaining, whining, praying and the occasional story about the old days. I don't know if she realized the reason she hurt so much was because she spent her life in bed complaining about it, but I think it affected my dad a lot. He started making jokes about how if he ever got to the point where he couldn't take care of himself, he wanted to let out to go play in traffic.

Personally, I just assume my body is and always will be beat to hell. I've had a bad knee since I was 4 or 5 when I got hit with a rock, I've worn glasses since I was 8 or 9. None of it has stopped me canoeing 30 miles in a day, staying at the front of my squad on the “fun” runs or hiking 25 miles in a day. I don't expect my body to just be in good shape just because I'm under 30. I know I have to make it be so, and I think that's a major factor in how you age, is whether or not you take responsibility and choose to age gracefully. I know 28 year-olds who have the body of a 40 year-old because they spent their youth doing the drugs, sex and rock n' roll thing. Not that any of them would take it back for a moment.
bravo1102 at 6:59AM, May 5, 2012
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ozoneocean wrote:
I have a working theory that the older some people get, the more their world and interests shrink, till it consists entirely of their own body and nothing else.
With most of the seniors I know I'd rather discuss bowel movements than politics.  But then the content of a bowel movement and US politics is about the same.
SLK8ne at 10:09PM, Sept. 14, 2012
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ozoneocean wrote:
I have a working theory that the older some people get, the more their world and interests shrink, till it consists entirely of their own body and nothing else.
 With most of the seniors I know I'd rather discuss bowel movements than politics.  But then the content of a bowel movement and US politics is about the same. 
LOL, true that. Like a very boring version of professional wrestling!

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