Here's the topic for today - please share your thoughts in a comment!



I would probably want a cloned one that is like my original, but it might depend on the situation. If by then I had a really good reason for wanting a bionic one I might do that instead. Good reasons could include: I might still be at risk of losing it again (and bionic limbs are tougher) or, possibly, I might need the benefits that a bionic limb would have over a cloned one. I'm not particularly interested in super-strength, but I don't really know what the future will hold. The key for me though, is if I don't have a real NEED for a bionic limb, I'm not going to go that route.

Depends which is better and what you need it for.

If I'm a soldier in a future war and a bionic arm is very strong and allows me to defend myself better, has integrated weapons or shielding etc then I'll take that thanks!
It'll help me to protect my good arm ;)

Also, if I'm just a normal civilian and the bionic arm is going to last longer than me and it has all the sensation and fine control (or more control) of a real arm then I'll go for that.

If the bionic arm is just unfeeling metal without the fine control and has software bugs and needs repairs and tuning and causes weird aches and pains then give me a nice clone arm instead.

Could also be a question of what your insurance covers. When I got my cataract surgery they give you all new lenses in the eyes. But only some are covered by insurance and only some surgical procedures are covered. Laser cataract surgery and repair of astigmatism was not covered.

So my new bionic eyes put me from 20/400 to 20/40. Huge difference but I could have gotten more for the few thousand dollars that I just don't have.

I got my new cloned arm but the insurance only covers four fingers. I look like Mickey Mouse!

If bionics are better than the real thing, I'd opt for them regardless of whether I've lost an arm, assuming cost is not a factor. I'd go full bionic everything. But if there are significant drawbacks, and I can get all the benefits of bionic with some sort of external attachment that I can put on and off when I need it, then I wouldn't see the point.

I think the philosophical root of the question you're trying to get at is how important is it to remain human to some degree, and does turning parts of your body to machines reduce that. It seems a no-brainer that if a bionic arm is cost-effective and easily repairable, still gives you tactile sensations, and is much stronger and tougher than a normal art, you go bionic!

But as many movies try to suggest, losing more and more of your body to machinery is analogous to losing more of your base humanity. Remember when Luke Skywalker cut off Darth Vader's arm, then looked at his own artificial hand in dismay? He seemed to equate Darth Vader's long lost love and empathy with being partly artificial. I know that's largely symbolic, but would any of it be true?


I've already got some artificial stuff (a couple teeth haha) and it never crosses my mind, but how much of me must become artificial before I start to feel ‘less human’? Maybe as long as it's just limbs, sensory organs, and other organs that just ‘do physical work’ (hearts and lungs), but if we start replacing organs that produce hormones and enzymes that affects our feelings and moods…! What if we're just a human brain inside an armored shell? Would we feel human at all?

I guess… someone else is gonna have to go first and let me see the results before I go too far haha!

You know Kim, I wouldn't really mind being an emotionless mind in a giant armoured shell.

That reminds me of the Brainship series by Anne McCaffery. I recommend them highly.
The idea is that in the far future, people with severe congenital difficulties who are born with no chance at life outside of permanent life support are given the chance to be “brains”. They're encased in a metal column with full life support and their “body” becomes a starship that they control, or a space station or a whole city.

Initially I thought that'd be pretty awful, but emotions and all the problems, maintenance, and clean-up with nasty human bodies does get pretty tiresome. I wouldn't mind swapping that for a mechanical alternative.

ozoneocean wrote:
You know Kim, I wouldn't really mind being an emotionless mind in a giant armoured shell.

That reminds me of the Brainship series by Anne McCaffery. I recommend them highly.
The idea is that in the far future, people with severe congenital difficulties who are born with no chance at life outside of permanent life support are given the chance to be “brains”. They're encased in a metal column with full life support and their “body” becomes a starship that they control, or a space station or a whole city.

Initially I thought that'd be pretty awful, but emotions and all the problems, maintenance, and clean-up with nasty human bodies does get pretty tiresome. I wouldn't mind swapping that for a mechanical alternative.

It would be tempting IF a ‘mind only’ can keep emotion. I'd more strongly consider it, but… if ‘mind only’ means losing emotion (in all it's messy bittersweet glory)… If that is the price, I wouldn't willingly pay that! I can't imagine Art (songs, paintings, sculpture, dance…) issuing forth from a mind bereft of emotion. Of course, if I were made a emotionless mind against my will, then I likely wouldn't care afterwards (just like I wouldn't care about much at all - ‘care’ being and emotion and all ;))

I'm stalking you today :D

What makes you think that removing a brain from a body takes away the emotions? That was the point of the stories in the series I read. The minds were still so human without their bodies. Emotions aren't just chemical reactions from our meat suits.

Im reminded of Akira. A human brain is so much more than its physical components. Slice it and dice it and there's so much you'll never find or quantify. But then
I'm a nature not nurture kind of guy.

bravo1102 wrote:
What makes you think that removing a brain from a body takes away the emotions? That was the point of the stories in the series I read. The minds were still so human without their bodies. Emotions aren't just chemical reactions from our meat suits.

Im reminded of Akira. A human brain is so much more than its physical components. Slice it and dice it and there's so much you'll never find or quantify. But then
I'm a nature not nurture kind of guy.

I actually would love for you to be right! But Dopamine (the happy hormone) requires a functioning liver. Estrogen and Testosterone requires Ovaries and Testes. Adrenalin requires… Well you get it. How much emotion can a brain without these feel? I'd love for it to be true, but just not sure… If they figured out a way to pump these in, or synthesize the equivalents, so that you feel love and life even just being a brain… That'd be nice!

I'd love for minds to be human without bodies OR brains (ie. Souls really exists), but then we're getting away from Tech questions…

Talking about a bionic brain and endocrine system: we should remember the key is not the substrate (what it is made of) but its function. Assuming we knew how, we could emulate the function of hormones and such digitally. As it is, preliminary models of artificial synapses now exist and they're slated to be used in AI research… which is only so many degrees of separation away from our own brains.

In any case, when people talk about “losing their humanity”, they're raising an odd subject: humanity is just a set of traits and, if you look at it a certain way, sensations. Most bionics wouldn't change that, and even in the case where bionics would, it might not be a bad thing.

KimLuster wrote:

bravo1102 wrote:
What makes you think that removing a brain from a body takes away the emotions? That was the point of the stories in the series I read. The minds were still so human without their bodies. Emotions aren't just chemical reactions from our meat suits.

Im reminded of Akira. A human brain is so much more than its physical components. Slice it and dice it and there's so much you'll never find or quantify. But then
I'm a nature not nurture kind of guy.

I actually would love for you to be right! But Dopamine (the happy hormone) requires a functioning liver. Estrogen and Testosterone requires Ovaries and Testes. Adrenalin requires… Well you get it. How much emotion can a brain without these feel? I'd love for it to be true, but just not sure… If they figured out a way to pump these in, or synthesize the equivalents, so that you feel love and life even just being a brain… That'd be nice!

I'd love for minds to be human without bodies OR brains (ie. Souls really exists), but then we're getting away from Tech questions…

What comes first, the brain ordering the hormone released or the released hormone affecting the brain? What if the brain feels without the hormones and they are released to get the body to follow along?

Cart before the horse.

Well, hormones typically go along with biological urges necessary for survival (feeding, f**king, fight, flight…). The pleasure/fear felt is to prompt action along those Big Fs. Many animals with extremely primitive brains engage in these activities with gusto, and some animals are able to do them even with the head (and brain) removed… ie. the brain doesn't seem so important there.

For higher animals like humans, I'm sure the brain is the kickstarter for just about all of them, but I do wonder if the connection is too intertwined by millions of years of evolution to separate them; can a brain ‘feel’ without the other stuff that helps create the feeling…?

Like I said, I'd like for it to be true, but have my doubts. Now, if we could upload our conscious to a totally artificial brain, designed from the beginning to feel (The Singularity!), but a biological brain, evolved to work with a body… :/

But they can't test the opposite. They can't see if the brain reacts without the endocrine system. The autonomic nervous system is in the hind brain (with other automatic functions in the spinal column)

In many of those experiments electrical currents pumped into the animal to see what nerves operate what. Without anything creating those currents nothing usually works.

Some emotions have been evoked just by stimulation to the brain directly. I considered all these things when creating parts of my universe like the antics of Grey Guys.

Given enough time I believe science will be able to figure out how the brain works. It can then be emulated. Also, if they can figure out a good approximation that MIGHT be useful as well, but it would need to be tested.