As many of you probably noticed, the major auto industries aren't doing so well these days. A lot of it is due to the economical situation but a lot of it is also due to the fact that America has forgotten how to manufacture a good dependable automobile. Crystler is the most guilty of this party. According to Consumer Reports, none of what they put out has made a good rating, in fact, their ratings are below average. Ford, General Motors, and Chevy aren't too far behind either when it comes to below average ratings, well, perhaps one exception is Chevy's pickup truck. Other than that, not so good.

Back in the seventies, American cars were decent, so what happened? I suppose quantity far outweighs quality these days.

Just recently I've had to replace an old Plymouth Grand Voyager minivan due to a dangerous engine defect. Case in point. I could be going full speed at fifty miles per hour and the engine would die just like that, losing steering and brakes all together. In 1995, when my dad bought it new, it was doing that occasionally, yet he did not bother to go back to the dealer when he could have gotten a replacement under the lemon law. So, we got stuck with this van, which was okay to start out with, but then with its unstable reputation, it could not go far. After several months, I said enough was enough with the engine problem. Mom agreed. So at the end of March, I signed up with Consumer Reports online, and researched Honda, Toyota and Hyundai. I pretty much knew what I wanted. A small SUV that's dependable and won't give me too much grief. Pretty much I was looking at the Honda CRV, prefferably pre owned 05 model. That was a little out of my price range, and so was a Rav 4. Then, my sister told me about Hyundai, and that she got a great deal on a Santa Fe, used, for about twenty thousand dollars. She bought it new of course, and since I was going pre owned, I got an even better deal. So back online I went, researced Hyundai's Santa Fe and Tucson, and found better than average ratings for both. In april, I visited several Hyundai dealers, and after a week or so, I found an 05 Tucson with only forty six thousand miles on it, good condition, for thirteen thousand dollars, including a two year warrentee, that was still in effect. I test drove the SUV, and words can not express how much I'm enjoying this car. Goes to show you. When you want a DEPENDABLE car, it's best to go foreign, prefferably with either Toyota, Honda, or Hyundai. If I could have afforded it, I would have bought a Honda, but I love my Hyundai.

I had a conversation recently about this with a friend. The talk came down to the idea that the American manufacturers had long since gotten lazy/greedy on their success. From what he understood, they had better designs for engines and such, but purposely elected not to use them in the interests that it was better for the industry if people just kept replacing their cars rather than merely parts. I suppose they might have banked on the idea of Americans continuing to buy American cars out of pride, to protect jobs, or maybe some lingering positive reputation from the 70's. Meanwhile, a lot of the modern ‘innovation’ seemed to have gone the direction of fuel wasting SUVs. Now they can't sell those in this market. I'm not certain how much of it all is true, but it doesn't sound entirely implausible.

The end of the US auto industry has been long in the coming. Here in NJ, we had many major plants. You could see them shrivel up over the course of the last 10 years. We saw the writing on the wall.

My longest running car was a used Chevy Cavalier Z24, for about 8 years. It was a tough SOB of a car and great on acceleration. By the end, I rode it into the ground and it couldn't have been more busted up, but it was a good car with an engine that people actually complimented on.

My next car, bought at an inconvenient time, was a Ford Tempo. Total POS from moment one. I can't even begin to start on what garbage it was. But for the price I paid and that it lasted 2 years, I got my money's worth.

Then I picked up a Hyundai Elantra, recommended to me by the same aforementioned friend with a knowledge of automotives. It ran without incident. I thought it was a great car. Last Friday, the stupid thing self destructed for no apparent reason or warning. The engine/tran was completely borked. I paid nearly as much for it as I did the Cavalier. Never again. What a waste of money.

Yikes. That's why I went to a Hyundai dealer for my SUV. The car was given a fifty point inspection by their mechanics, checked over from bumper to bumper, and I even have a two year warrentee on this car if anything breaks they fix it for free. Whew. Good thing because the car alone was enough to put a good dent in my bank account. Another good tool was Consumer Reports. They had nothing but good things to say about the 05 Hyundai Tucson. It rated better than average as far as used cars. So, maybe I picked mine up when Hyundai started to make really good cars.

We had two Toyotas which lasted for 16 years. I don't know what American cars are like, but I think that's pretty good.

but it's a hyundai… ew… :P

but all seriousness, my dad owned a few cars.

he had a pontiac firebird and a datsun 240z and those two where utter crap to maintain. He now has been driving a Ford F-150 from 1986, and the only problem that we had was something with the ignition, but after that it's still running strong.

the only complaint is that it gets like 18 miles per gallon. but it's a fucking off-road truck.

I'd personally avoid any vehicle made by GM and chryseller. we had a chevy van and that was crap in general. and then we replaced it and it's okay, but I don't know how long it will last. It's meant for moving things.

I had a toyota for 4 years, and i'd say it was a good car. too bad i totaled it.

now i drive my mom's mazda mpv from 1999, which she abused. I had to replace the radiator. which cracked back in 2004. it also has some oil problems and the suspension is wearing out, where you can jump on one end and hear rusty creaking.

and then she got a honda accord, which i can't say much about so far.

I'd still trust Ford. And later, I'd like to get a used BMW or a minicooper. most accidents involving bmw's are them getting rear ended because their brakes are more effecient than most other cars.

i think mercedes are now owned by chrysler and they're becoming crap to maintain.

and then there's the Volvo that is notorious for being a tank. same with toyota trucks.

The fave car company for my family has always been Toyota.
Mainly my dad with Land cruisers, with diesel engines. They just last.

You still see a few of the old models around here from the 70s and earlier. They still run and they're good off-road vehicles. Very reliable. It's the number one vehicle used by mining companies and NGOs in Africa and Asia; the ubiquitous white Land cruiser. Calling a vehicle like that an SUV is an insult to it. lol!
It's a utility 4x4 and nothing else.

Back in the 60s some even came with cranks as a backup if the battery went dead and you were stuck in the middle of nowhere- people die here when stranded in the bush…
My dad's has backup fuel tanks- that's not an extra feature, it just came with the model.

———-
Many cars are built with planned obsolescence in mind as part of the consumer product cycle. Which is illogical when you think of the resources that go into producing, transporting, and maintaining them, let alone the atrocious cost to the consumer! It's an idiot consumer model and the car companies are collapsing under it: They rely on customers to keep buying new ones all the time and when that doesn't happen they start to die. Competition doesn't really help the industry either because of the complexity of the product (among other things), they can't afford to produce at a loss. If companies are dying, they probably deserve it.
It's just a shame about all the people whose livelihood relies on them… :(

I imagine they'll come back though in the end. Even if they're new companies with different names :)
We still need the transport, older cars will still wear out and need replacing, We've got trillions of dollars invested in the infrastructure (mechanics, roads, fuel stations etc), so cars and the need for them isn't going away, not just because of some temporary economic slow down. I'm sure you'll always have local American producers.

JoeL_CQB
but it's a hyundai… ew… :P

but all seriousness, my dad owned a few cars.

he had a pontiac firebird and a datsun 240z and those two where utter crap to maintain. He now has been driving a Ford F-150 from 1986, and the only problem that we had was something with the ignition, but after that it's still running strong.

the only complaint is that it gets like 18 miles per gallon. but it's a fucking off-road truck.

I'd personally avoid any vehicle made by GM and chryseller. we had a chevy van and that was crap in general. and then we replaced it and it's okay, but I don't know how long it will last. It's meant for moving things.

I had a toyota for 4 years, and i'd say it was a good car. too bad i totaled it.

now i drive my mom's mazda mpv from 1999, which she abused. I had to replace the radiator. which cracked back in 2004. it also has some oil problems and the suspension is wearing out, where you can jump on one end and hear rusty creaking.

and then she got a honda accord, which i can't say much about so far.

I'd still trust Ford. And later, I'd like to get a used BMW or a minicooper. most accidents involving bmw's are them getting rear ended because their brakes are more effecient than most other cars.

i think mercedes are now owned by chrysler and they're becoming crap to maintain.

and then there's the Volvo that is notorious for being a tank. same with toyota trucks.

I know, Hyundai did not have a good reputation a long time ago but since then they've come up in their quality, and have rated better than average with the Hyundai Tuscon. So much so that there are very few used ones left on the lots because everyone is hanging onto them. Same goes for the Hyundai Santa Fe which you can not find used anywhere.

Before 2004 or so Saturn was the GM to get. The SL2 would last forever. Mine nearly did. And all the crash safty stuff worked perfectly to keep me alive when the car flipped and went airborne.

I miss my old 1975 Plymouth Duster. A car without planned obsolesnse. Drove it until the trannie went. What messed up the trannie? My bad driving and maintenance habits.

With proper care any vehicle will last and last and last; even a British made car. :) It's usually the user who ruins the vehicle (assisted by poor engineering and most of that is not planned obsolensence but just being stupid).

You take care of your vehicle and it'll take care of you. Even if it was designed and built by the lowest bidding contractor.

I love my Subaru! :)

bravo1102
Before 2004 or so Saturn was the GM to get. The SL2 would last forever. Mine nearly did. And all the crash safty stuff worked perfectly to keep me alive when the car flipped and went airborne.

The SL series of Saturn was, bar NONE, the best selling Saturn vehicle around. One of the brands at the dealership that I work for is Saturn, and we STILL have people requesting those from the auction houses.

If a SL1 or SL2 comes in, they NEVER last longer than 2 weeks on the lot, including reconditioning time. It's amazing… I'm really really hoping that whoever ends up with Saturn with the highest bid takes note of that, and really revamps the brand again.

The big 3 have been making a LOT of really, really braindead decisions for quite some time now. For one example, let's look at Oldsmobile. For YEARS, this was probably the MOST stable brand in GM's lineup… no other brand had the loyalty that Oldsmobile did.

Of course, the problem wasn't that they were selling, it's who was BUYING them. Olds customers tended to be, well… older. GM wanted to market toward the young, hip population, They turn over vehicles much faster than the older market, which tend to drive the wheels off of them.

So what do they do? First, they revamped the design of them, making them more “modern.” This had the result of disenchanting the older folks that liked the more comfortable, familiar lines… and alienating the younger folks, because they didn't LIKE the new look.

So sales dropped to a meager 750,000 units a year. Note that number… there's TONS of other manufacturers out there that would KILL for 3/4th of a million units a year.

That wasn't enough for GM… even though some of its other units weren't selling a third of those numbers (with higher operating costs, mind you), the brand was cut entirely.

Really, the leadership of the big three have just been lining their own pockets at the expense of everything else almost universally for quite some time. Ford wised up in time and started changing before everyone else, so they'll avoid bankruptcy… but GM almost *HAS* to head that route now.

I doubt we'll ever see a Big Three like what we had before… and honestly?

I think that's a good thing.

>Net

Remember the Big Three have only had their lock since the 1950s. Fifty years is a pretty good run. Once they got good competition they had to hit the ground running to compete, and they stumbled because they weren't used to having to someone who had engineering that hadn't gotten lazy.

And all the bits and pieces of the Big Three were once individual companies. Maybe they'd be better off breaking them up like Ma Bell and then have them re-combine.

Having driven Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs and Cadillacs, other than the name tag and appointments there wasn't a whole lot of difference. When they diverged the engineering they competed with themselves.

If someone came up with an updated Studebaker… retro, retro, retro… AND STOP WITH THE DAMN BOXES! Scion… It's a BOX!

God, yes, I agree… the box look is HORRID. I can't stand the looks of those… and it throws all the arguments of aerodynamics right out the window.

The vehicles I'm interested in, personally, are the newest Kia coming out sometime this summer… the Kia Forte… and the Toyota Prius.

We had a Kia rep visit the dealership with the new Forte last week, that thing is friggin SWEET. The Prius, I'm more interested in simply because I have a 1 1/2 hour drive each way to and from work, so for 3 hours of driving a day (all highway), getting 50ish miles to the gallon is VERY tempting indeed.

Of course, neither of those will help the big Three's issues, but meh. Best thing to happen to GM right now would be to just go ahead and go bankrupt, get rid of all the useless crap, and come out a healthy and MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller company.

>Net

i hate the boxmobiles that came out the past few years.

the honda one, the scion xb, and then a bunch of other ones. the only other one i can think of is the kia soul. although they make perfect sense in the city, they just look ugly.

and then i was watching the tv the other day and i saw this


makes me want to get a Jetta for a commuter. my only gripe about the prius is that when you drive it, it feels like you're driving a cloud. personal taste.

The problem I have with the Volkswagens is the cost of their upkeep is extraordinarily high compared to other vehicles. At one point in my life I considered getting a Bug… but when I saw their upkeep costs, it was insane to even consider it.

Plus, the local Volkswagen dealership is BEYOND aggressive in their marketing. They sell more than one brand, and one day we stopped in there to test drive a Hyundai Santa-Fe (my wife was considering it). We were very nearly assaulted the moment we drove on the lot, and we literally had four different salespeople trying to sell us anything and everything they could.

We ended up leaving without even test driving, just walked out while the salesperson was getting the keys. He called my cell phone SEVEN times over the course of the next twenty-four hours, trying to get me to come back in, and we then received email from them on a daily basis for the next three months and mail from them on a weekly basis.

I ended up closing that email account when we moved out of that particular city to where we're currently at (didn't leave a forwarding address)… and the next VW dealership I could shop at would be a 3 hour drive in any direction.

Whereas there's a Toyota dealership in my town, as well as one in the town where I work… and I work *AT* a Kia dealership, so the Forte would come at employee cost. :) And yes, the Soul is a rather ugly car… but for weeks now, we've had a sign up at our dealership.

It says “We have souls for sale!”

It gives me a darn good laugh every morning. :D One day I'm going to pull in and see Satan with a clipboard walking the lot, pointing at salespeople and going “I'll take that one… and that one… and that one…”

>Net

You have to be careful about judging a car company based off of one car you owned. Even the best car company can build a lemon. It's always good to look at consumer reports and talk to multiple people.

My best friend's family swore of Ford because of one truck they had with electrical problems. But I know a good handful of other people who swear allegiance to the brand, always ready to argue with the Chevy owners.

I have no allegiance to any car brand… but my current Jeep Liberty has served me well so far. As it stands, I'd buy another Jeep. However, my view of vehicles is warped because I grew up driving “classics” that were at least 15 years older that I was. I'm accustomed to cars breaking down, at least until I finally bought a car manufactured in the current decade.

bravo1102
AND STOP WITH THE DAMN BOXES! Scion… It's a BOX!

The Scion is such an ugly machine. One of my coworkers drives one, and it makes me doubt his artistic merit.

Hawk
You have to be careful about judging a car company based off of one car you owned. Even the best car company can build a lemon. It's always good to look at consumer reports and talk to multiple people.

My best friend's family swore of Ford because of one truck they had with electrical problems. But I know a good handful of other people who swear allegiance to the brand, always ready to argue with the Chevy owners.

I have no allegiance to any car brand… but my current Jeep Liberty has served me well so far. As it stands, I'd buy another Jeep. However, my view of vehicles is warped because I grew up driving “classics” that were at least 15 years older that I was. I'm accustomed to cars breaking down, at least until I finally bought a car manufactured in the current decade.

bravo1102
AND STOP WITH THE DAMN BOXES! Scion… It's a BOX!

The Scion is such an ugly machine. One of my coworkers drives one, and it makes me doubt his artistic merit.

I definitely agree with doing the research on Consumer Reports and talking to other people about the car you're considering with someone else. I did exactly that, and I'm really happy I did. At first I considered getting a pre owned Honda CRV, prefferably 05 or 06 model. They were rated top of the class as far as used compact SUV's but the price tag ran a bit higher than I could afford. Then my sister told me about Hyundai's Santa Fe and Tucson. She's had her Santa Fe for four years and not a single problem with it. So, I looked at the Santa Fe online on Consumer Reports. Top of the class third only to Honda, better than average rating. The price tag for a pre owned came in at about thirteen thousand dollars, which wasn't so bad. About four thousand less than the CRV. So, I went to a couple of Hyundai dealers and believe it or not, they did not have any pre owned Santa Fe's on their lots because no one is turning them in. I went to one location that did have them but the mileage was really high on them. So, I took a second look, and was shown a nice 05 Tucson with only forty six thousand miles on it, with a price tag of under thirteen thousand dollars. The color was just right, silver. I asked to test drive it, and I really liked the ride it gave. And that was the one I went with. I also researched this car and yes, better than average rating, best rating of all the Tuscon models put together. And there are a lot of them out there. But you won't find them in the dealerhip's lots. Truth is, I got a rare find, and most of them are not pre owned. You have to buy them new. I think it's companies like Toyota, Honda and now Hyundai, who are going to put the american auto industries to shame in the mere future. There's also talk that Hyundai is going to start making pickup trucks, believe it or not.

They already MAKE trucks, just not for American markets (… I THINK, I'm not 100% sure on this one). :) Kia's the same (actually, Kia is OWNED by Hyundai…) way, they actually make some HUGE vehicles over in Korea. Buses, large governmental machinery, etc…

Suzuki just came out with a line of trucks themselves. We sell em. :) I haven't driven em though, so no idea if they're any good or not.

>Net

Have you thought that perhaps american cars are EXACTLY what they used to be… and that's the problem with them?

Net
They already MAKE trucks, just not for American markets way, they actually make some HUGE vehicles over in Korea. Buses, large governmental machinery, etc…

Suzuki just came out with a line of trucks themselves. We sell em. :) I haven't driven em though, so no idea if they're any good or not.

>Net

Hyundai like Mitsubishi makes all kinds of heavy machinery, even tanks and other armored fighting vehicles. Hyundai even makes submarines. Hyundai heavy trucks have started to hit the US market along with Mitsubishi and Fuso.

Suzuki has been making light trucks for the Asian market forever.

With all these Japanese cars in the US I wonder how long it'll be before Americans adopt right hand drive.

There was an article in The New Yorker a few weeks ago that did a good job of describing all the faults of the American way of car building, contrasting it with the Japanese way. It was very illuminating.

American cars just arent blowing up on impact anymore like they used to. This is an outrage.

You're not packing enough c4 into the radiator dude

Ahh, yes, that's right Duhh, I have seen some video clips with large work trucks from Hyundai in them. Of course they were of Korea, and over there that's their number one manufacturer.

Sooner or later, I'm sure I'll see them here too.

lefarce
American cars just arent blowing up on impact anymore like they used to. This is an outrage.

Go see the scene in the old movie Top Secret where the German truck bumps the Pinto…

I normally don't belong to car discussion since I don't know enough about the subject to make a decent comment about it. All I know is that the guys at Top Gear don't respect American cars that much judging by how often they make fun of them.

Someone once told me these funny possible abbreviations for Ford and GM. I forgot what the GM was supposed to stand for but Ford was “Fix or repair, daily”. The one who told me this was an American car nut so he kinda gave me a rough idea about the average respect level Americans have for their cars today.

GMC= Garage Mechanic's companion
Ford= Found on road dead
Fiat= Fix it again Tony
Pontiac= Poor old negro thinks it's a Cadillac

There is one for every car make but those are few I remember.

Hawk
You have to be careful about judging a car company based off of one car you owned. Even the best car company can build a lemon. It's always good to look at consumer reports and talk to multiple people.

Are you trying to say that Honda is not super great awesome? Because I will pound you. T_T

bravo1102
GMC= Garage Mechanic's companion
Ford= Found on road dead
Fiat= Fix it again Tony
Pontiac= Poor old negro thinks it's a Cadillac

There is one for every car make but those are few I remember.

I fully agree with you. But you left out ohh Christ my Christler broke down again. I owned a Plymouth grand voyager and that damn thing was a lemon. In fact the mechanic in my area told me it was mostly Christlers that ended up in his lot for repair work. And yah, lots of Fords too. Especially the “ACK” Ford Windstar minivan. The damn thing is known for major transmission problems. And as far as Honda is concerened, Skool's right, do NOT mess with Honda. They have the best reputation according to Consumer reports, to make top notch vehicles. Second only to Toyota's Prius. So yeah, that's one heck of a good record if you ask me. If it wasn't so expensive I would have invested in a Honda CRV myself.

skoolmunkee

Hawk
You have to be careful about judging a car company based off of one car you owned. Even the best car company can build a lemon. It's always good to look at consumer reports and talk to multiple people.

Are you trying to say that Honda is not super great awesome? Because I will pound you. T_T

He might not be, but I might. It's my personal experience, but I've yet to meet a honda vehicle I respect. My first job had 2 2003 Honda Ridgelines, a 04 Toyota Titan and 3 F-350's. Within a month of buying the Ridgelines we were replacing the transmission in one because it stripped a couple of gears while trying to pull a 5,000 pd trailer. The second wasn't long after. Another words, this truck couldn't handle the amount of weight a Ford Ranger is designed to haul. Maybe we got unlucky with two piece of junk trucks and Honda trucks are better than that, but my experience and my mechanic's have all said they just weren't good vehicles. Consumer report had them rated as some of the better trucks for their year too.

My first car was a 97 Dodge Stratus es. It was built around the same frame and working components as the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Dodge Avenger because at the time Mistubishi was in part owned by Chrysler. My little sedan was one of the faster, more reliable vehicles of it's size that I knew on the road. The only part of it that ever had a problem was the only part manufactured in Japan, namely the engine built by Mistubishi. At the time, Consumer report smashed that car as being easy to steal, and having only the redeeming quality of the power of it's engine. I've owned two other Stratus's since and they've been a couple of the most abused cars ever going off road and racing and just kept going without any problems. And these cars have been considered some of the worst built since 1998 when Daimler Mercedes bought out Chrysler. The quality control went to crap that year as Daimler started making serious changes in the structure of Chrysler.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that you probably shouldn't listen to your buddy down the street or Consumer Report as much as you listen to your mechanic. Most mechanics I know will steer you in the direction of something like a Ford Taurus, Chevy Malibu or a Honda Civic if you really do want an import just because they're cheap and last a long time. I wouldn't count the American makers out. They've produced plenty of solid vehicles in recent years and actually a good few that were far better than the imports. The import manufacturers make just as many crappy cars.

Back in the seventies, American cars were decent, so what happened? I suppose quantity far outweighs quality these days.

I'd say that's pretty much the opposite of what's the case. American cars during the 70's and 80's were pretty bad. What we remember as decent from those days are the classics and the muscle cars, not the every day vehicles.

skoolmunkee

Hawk
You have to be careful about judging a car company based off of one car you owned. Even the best car company can build a lemon. It's always good to look at consumer reports and talk to multiple people.

Are you trying to say that Honda is not super great awesome? Because I will pound you. T_T

What?! Who was talking about Honda?

I was talking about people who have one problem with one car and then think it's a problem with the entire brand… like my friend who thought all Fords were bad because his dad's Ford truck had an electrical problem.