The Duck Webcomics

Art For Art's Sake

Gunwallace at 12:00AM, Feb. 13, 2025

tags: art, artist, cancel, gunwallace, joni mitchell, neil gaiman

8 likes!

I was tempted to write about something easy and non-controversial this week, but then decided I would just keep being me. At least this post has something to do with comics, and current news. I'm genuinely interested in what people have to say on this topic, as it it not something I'm still grappling with

First up, let me say I have been a huge Neil Gaiman fan. I bought Black Orchid when it first came out, then Sandman, and so on. I've read many of his books. I have signed copies of some that he was gracious enough to sign for free. I even have a copy of Good Omens signed by both him and Terry Pratchett. They signed it years apart, but they had a clever joint signature thing so it all melds together.

However, having noted all that, I completely believe the accusers in the current, ongoing, saga of sadness and sorrow.

It should be noted that Gaiman was here in New Zealand during the Covid outbreak, but somehow managed to leave and travel to his home on the Isle of Skye (literally half a world away), despite both places having severe travel restrictions at the time. He was spoken to by police. The reasons he gave for his seemingly impossible journey were (from his own blog) that he and his wife Amanda Palmer had “found ourselves in a rough place” and “needed to give each other some space …". This timeline fits, of course, the period the major accuser claims she had (re)confronted Palmer with what had been going on and shit hit the fan. The details of how he managed the journey elude me. I really want to know how he managed it.

Now, a number of productions linked to Gaiman have been stopped, or shortened, and many more upcoming projects have stalled or been cancelled outright. It would seem, at least for now, that Gaiman is done. Cancelled. Finished as a creative.

Except … would you buy a new Neil Gaiman work if one was published in a year from now? Or five years? Or ten? He's a really good writer, that much is true. I enjoyed reading his work. He's not exactly short of cash, so it's not like he needs to have anything published for a while. However, he is a workaholic by all accounts, and so it is likely he's still churning out the words even now. Is he done-for-all-money, or is it just a pause before the winds shift again, people forget the specifics (if they ever knew them), and he brings forth some epic work that reviewers can't help but heap praise upon? Maybe he'll finish Game of Thrones for George R. R. Martin, since he now has time on his hands? Would you buy that?

How much separation of art and the artist can we allow ourselves? I rather like music from the 1970s, but almost all the famous male musicians of that period had sexual interactions with underage groupies. Several of them even wrote songs about it. Many of the groupies wrote books. It's all out there, easy to find, if you want to feel icky about almost any classic rock lineup you can think of. Best to either remain ignorant of the details, or maybe switch to classical music instead?

Except even there you're faced with some terrible people and some abhorrent actions. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique is one of my favourite pieces of music to listen to, but the guy was a bit of a dick who tried to commit murder, but failed. I once had dinner with a NZ composer whose later musical career just seemed to be an excuse to get a new young lover into the country every few years. He has been, posthumously but very credibly, accused of multiple sexual assaults by former students. Ballet then? Well, no. So much going on there. Maybe I could just look at some nice paintings???

I read an article a few years ago where a writer said she'd stopped listening to Joni Mitchell, because Mitchell had once dressed up in blackface. She did. It was recorded on the cover of the album Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. It was part of “a bit” she did one year where she tried to show that a black man got more respect in the music scene than a white woman. Several of her non-white friends helped her with the outfits and makeup. Contextually, it would seem, what Mitchell did wasn't as simplistic as just putting on blackface. Yet the writer claimed she would never listen to another Joni song again. No shades of grey, just black and white. I still listen to Joni Mitchell. What does that say about me?

Hugh Laurie appeared in blackface for an episode of Jeeves and Wooster, along with Martin Clunes. It was period accurate. But should they be ‘cancelled’? I really hope not, because I like their writing, music, and comedy. But am I willing to overlook their ‘transgression’ just to suit myself? Should we hold everyone up to the highest standards possible? And if they cross any line should we them divest our lives of them and their works?

What would be left?

I must admit, I was a bit put off at Christmas when my cousin was given a Sandman graphic novel by a relative. Didn't they know? Should I mention what is going on? Or should I just sit back and have a third glass of wine and a sixth Christmas mince pie? I went with the latter. Or was that a sixth glass of wine and a third mince pie? I forget. But why did that gift bother me, when I'll happily listen to some classic rock from a band that Sable Starr slept with half of when she was 15? Should I mention I like Woody Allen movies? Does that make me a bad person? I haven't seen one in years, but I fondly remember many of them. I could quote from them right now … but I won't.

Where do you draw the line? What creatives can you just no longer interact with anymore because you ‘know too much’? How far can we separate art from the artist? Is time passed the key factor, or is it something else? Is ignorance bliss?

Jason Moon at 8:17PM, Feb. 13, 2025

Society and people now a days are so odd. Everyone being connected just makes things crazier as well. It seems people who are most unhappy with themselves or insecure have the most hot air to blow and strive to attack and cancel things they feel could threaten them. I will never hate an artists works because of something they said. I think people should be able to say whatever they want. I feel many sides people take now a days are just because they are afraid of the backlash. I don't like Trump or Musk, I feel they are psychopaths and they scare me and seeing them on the news and online all the time makes me disgusted and angry. Yet, if a friend or family member likes them I just let them be entitled to their opinions. Maybe if more people worried about spreading good things they like and stopped hating and trying to cancel others there could be more love and happiness expressed. Great article Gunwallace

Ozoneocean at 4:30PM, Feb. 13, 2025

With Gaiman I respect his creations but I've ever really liked them, the creative personality behind them has always been a bit repellent to me. After the allegations I still respect his creations- is my "repellent" feeling justified with this info coming out? Probably not, maybe, I have no idea. One very very important thing to remember is that many, may creative and amazing people devoted a lot of time and energy to working on projects with his name on them and by rejecting them because of his name you're also pissing on all those innocents. That came to my mind when people rejected Rowling's books because she's anti-trans.

Gunwallace at 2:14PM, Feb. 13, 2025

@PaulEberhardt: "People suck" just about sums it up.

TheJagged at 2:11PM, Feb. 13, 2025

But according to the internet i'm literally Hitler for still buying Doug TeNapel books and eating non-vegan meat, so pfff, don't listen to me.

TheJagged at 2:04PM, Feb. 13, 2025

We should cancel that Socrates guy, he's corrupting the youth with his ideas.

PaulEberhardt at 1:54PM, Feb. 13, 2025

We'll learn the truth eventually, and THEN I'll make up my mind what to think about Neil Gaiman, no earlier. The media are way too quick to make headlines these days, when nobody really knows anything yet. We're past the age of witch hunts, let's act our age! /// Now where to draw the red line? Is reading anything by William Burroughs OK? Should Lord Byron be deleted from the canon? Can I give a kid a book by Roald Dahl in good conscience? Can I say I like Ted Nugent's guitar playing and am inspired by it, even if I think he's a jerk through and through? Was it right for one Dave to fire the other Dave from Megadeth again? It's easier with Manowar, because after Ross the Boss had left they started to suck anyway, but still... I'm afraid I don't know. There's some things I can overlook and some I can never forgive, but if you don't want to end up punishing yourself for their shortcomings, it should be mostly a matter of whether or not to get their stuff second-hand only. People suck! 😞

PaulEberhardt at 10:29AM, Feb. 13, 2025

Now don't get me wrong: if there is anything in it, I do hope they'll lock him in a cell and throw away the key, rich and famous or not. All I'm saying is, this reminds me of so many celebrity cases when it later turned out that the accusers had, let's say, a different perception of what had happened, which they exaggerated, and didn't sneeze at the attention and prospect of money. Their reputation will never take a blow, that of the accused celebrity will no matter what comes put of it. There have been similar cases here in Germany fairly recently, even if international media didn't always pick them up, that boiled down to exactly that. Again: if he actually did it, I will be sorry for the women, very sad because another great writer I admire will have turned out to be such a low character and probably won't touch anything written by him for a long time, because some things you just can't ignore.

Another celebrity who couldn't keep his mouth shut and his hands in his pockets when he should have, eh? Where do I draw the line? Would I buy any new work by Neil Gaiman? ... You know, the first thing I did was to have a quick look what the man himself has to say about it: https://journal.neilgaiman.com/2025/01/breaking-silence.html Right. And now I feel I can comment on this. If anything about these very serious accusations is true - and let's face it, nothing comes out of nothing - my esteem of that guy will sink from 100% to zero. Also, it does sour the experience of reading all those lovely stuff he wrote in any case. Yet, let me say another thing: as long as he isn't actually convicted of abuse or even worse, I'm going to believe HIM! As long as it's just accusations, I'm rooting for Neil Gaiman. His considerable wealth will have got him a very good lawyer who I hope will try to clear his name. He's not going to come out on top anyway, the damage to his reputation is done.

dragonsong12 at 6:56AM, Feb. 13, 2025

This is always a tricky situation and there's no easy answer. My personal take is to just...allow for that. Art is very personal, even in how we engage with it. Each person should decide where their own boundaries with this stuff lie and they should at least attempt to respect those boundaries of others. (Please do not shame people for buying a book and also do not shame people for choosing not to buy a book. Discussion is fine, shame is not.) I'll acknowledge that I'm probably more sensitive than most about these things, once I know I have a hard time enjoying the art as easily and there's so much media out there in the world that it's hard for me to justify "needing" that particular work, but if something meant a lot to you on a personal level I'd never want to take that away from you. Still, there's so many great comic creators right here on the Duck who will likely never get the recognition that they deserve, I can just read their stuff instead.

Ironscarf at 6:51AM, Feb. 13, 2025

To take a slightly different tack, would we even know the art if it wasn't for the artist? Imagine Gaiman had been a spotty little guy with glasses who dressed badly, ran from cameras and was awkward in interviews. Would we be reading his stuff today? Would we know his name if he hadn't been the rock star comic guy and then the rock star writer with the dashing good looks and camera friendly personality? I'm not saying he's a bad writer, maybe not as good as his reputation would suggest, but we shouldn't be surprised when people that media savvy turn out to be bad people.

Genejoke at 4:40AM, Feb. 13, 2025

For the most part I consider cancel culture idiotic, I can usually separate art from artist unless the art reflects the acts/opinions I find abhorrent. Although in some cases the actions of the creator/artist/producer are so bad I cannot. Ian Watkins of Lostprophets springs to mind.

Ozoneocean at 4:23AM, Feb. 13, 2025

You have to separate art from the artist. Obviously there are issues and times when you can't but my default is to try when you can. I will still watch Bill Cosby, I'll still listen to Rolf Harris etc. It's not always possible to separate the art from the artist but it's best if you can.

marcorossi at 4:00AM, Feb. 13, 2025

Caravaggio was probably a multiple murderer. It is more difficult with people who are still alive, because one has the feeling of helping a "bad guy", but when we speak of people who are already dead I really don't care. Yesterday out by curiosity I searched online for Hitler's paintings and, while he certainly wasn't a genious, he wasn't that bad either; if I was to judge Hitler's art based on H's other actions, I would do the same sort simplified thinking he did; again the argument is different for people who are still alive and can still gain from their sales.

UnderTheBlackHat at 3:25AM, Feb. 13, 2025

We have no idea why people can't separate a persons work from their foibles. Not saying that everything some people do should be acceptable, but we believe that someone's work is not all they are and does not carry the stain of their misdeeds. If it did, then there should be a lot of companies out there that are shut down immediately. Start with the small ones... Like Volkswagen and Nissan, then worry about the rest. The problem is people somehow equate a work of fiction with their real life. Wonder Woman's creator may not have been the nicest guy in the universe or the most stable, but after a little tweaking, variations of her turned out really well. Don't toss out the baby with the bathwater. We may not like what someone did, but does that really taint their body of creative works? Especially some that are as universally lauded as what Gaimen has done. A lot of creatives have habits/isssues etc. that we may not approve of. Does that diminsh the work you enjoyed?

Andreas_Helixfinger at 3:23AM, Feb. 13, 2025

All I can say is: don't force yourself to hate what you love, nor love what you hate.

Prototype at 2:44AM, Feb. 13, 2025

I find that everyone has done something wrong at some point. If i only could listen to music or enjoy art and movies from people completely "free from sin" there would be nothing. I have to separate the work from the person.

plymayer at 2:38AM, Feb. 13, 2025

Black face was done by the clintons and whoopie/ted Danson. The political and entertainment industries feel they can do whatever they like. It's a career ender for real people.

bravo1102 at 12:55AM, Feb. 13, 2025

That's why I try not to read about the lives of artists whose work I like. I know they're probably all a--holes. People are like that and I can so no reason to not like the creation when the creator is a drunk, a wife beater or a vicious anti-semite. Though of course I despise Hemingway, it's because I don't like his books, not because he was a total dick.

InkyMoondrop at 12:31AM, Feb. 13, 2025

So... the thing that strikes me about these things is the same thing Harper Lee wrote about in Go Set a Watchman. How the heroes we idolize turn out to be rather fallible, how they often hold very very bad takes or done things we condemn and the question here is how much that negates the things we love them for? If someone who writes fiction that inspires great empathy in readers sometimes actually shows a lack of empathy or decency towards other human beings, which of these sides should be ignored in favor of the other? And I'm not sure either has to be. Obviously no one should have to support someone who they hate, and lots of people do get away with a lot. But through creative work, people often strive to share their best parts with others. And if you fell in love with someone's "best parts" there's nothing wrong with that just because they also have parts they are or should be ashamed of.

Stahlberg at 12:24AM, Feb. 13, 2025

I draw the line at sexual abuse, murder, and hate speech like that of JK Rowling. Blackface? Not if it isn't part of a pattern of hate, like if Trump or Musk did it, yeah of course then it's just confirmation of what we already know. but Joni Mitchell, no I would never advocate canceling her for that