Hey guys, Forum Fighters is back! Sorry we've been gone so long, but we had some difficulty with the team, turns out Hark doesn't have enough time to lend a helping han- I mean paw! Lets keep our swords down here, no need to offend…but, to help fill the gap we found another insane awesome dude, and his name also begins with an “H”! May I introduce, Hakoshen! And since he is our new member, he announces the first fight!

Somewhere, in a time and place beyond understanding and on a day too complex to warrant a proper explanation, six men found themselves at an impasse. Three soldiers were headed north, and three soldiers were headed south. This would have been fine if not for the cumbersomely narrow bridge, which was precisely wide enough for three men to walk side by side, or one man and a horse. The river below was fast and tumultuous, full of sharp rocks and thrashing rapids; attempting to ford it would be suicidal.

“Hail!” shouted the first man; a soldier clad in bronze armor. On the other side his greeting was returned by a man in simpler cloth garments, who replied with exactly the same.

“I am in service to the House of Seleucus, Satrap of Babylon, appointed by the late Alexander the Great maybe you've heard of him? I demand first passage with my consort across this bridge!”

“Well, I think I read about you all in a book once, but I'm in the service of His Majesty, Henry V? You know, battle of Agincourt? Eh? And considering I claim the authority of a King who yet lives, and not one taking a province of a dead man, I say WE go first.” replied the simply clad fellow with the bow and quiver.

“Lord Nobunaga will have all of our heads if I am delayed any further,” replied a fellow alongside the first, “so whoever you claim service to, unless you want your heads returned to your lords in bags, I suggest you move.”

“The hell is everyone going on about all these kings and queens and what the fuck ever else?” shouted a man alongside the the bowman. “Out of our way or I'll crack your skulls myself!”

The third man on the other side, a tall, husky fellow clad in leathers and furs with a long, tasseled spear didn't say anything. He simply reared his horse and made ready, and the third on the other side, also a cavalryman, wrapped in ornate and intricate leather and silk readied a long, curved saber.

At this strange time, in this impossible place, over a bridge that was just too narrow for diplomacy, six men prepared for battle.



The Situation: Two teams of varied infantry were on errands for their respective lords, when a dispute over first rights to a bridge led to a fight. The landscape is the hilly side of the lower reaches of a mountain, with a rapid and deathly river crashing below, and a bridge wide enough for a single horse drawn cart and some breathing room to pass, which is roughly twenty five meters long. There are some scattered trees, but only a handful are close to the road in any sort. Both teams are in a hurry to cross, and the option to wait out the others is not an option.

Team 1:

English/Welsh Bowman: A typical Western European infantry man garbed in the uniform and livery of his lord, his sole armament is a yew longbow and arrows made with iron tips.

Ceitherne: Another western infantryman, however his particular fellow is of Gaelic descent, armed in regular clothing, but sporting a leather strapped wooden buckler and an iron single bladed axe.

Mongolian Cavalryman: Perched atop a horse and outfitted with studded, boiled leather armor, furs and a leather helmet, he is equipped with a spear.


Team 2:

Militia Hoplite: With a large bronze shield, a long spear and a suit of bronze armor, he is one of the citizen soldiers of his nation.

Yari Ashigaru: The Ashigaru is a Japanese infantryman, equipped with layered leather scale and a long spear.

Mamluk Cavalry: A soldier born a slave, these cavalrymen were the riders of many Muslim nations. This one is minimally armored with a saber.

Votes:
TEAM ONE: Five votes.
Who voted for them: Alwinbot, TheFlyingGreenMonkey, Product Placement, Same, and Rokulily.
TEAM TWO: Four votes.
Who voted for them: Shirkersama, I Am the 1337 Master, Hakoshen, and Mettaur (Mr.Fichter).

I vote for team one!

Team 2. One word: armor.

I vote for team 1. One word: range.

I don't think an arrow from a yew bow would pierce bronze armor…I'm not sure though, I shall research and possibly change my vote.
Nope sticking with them 2. Armor's were it's at.
Also I just noticed that or choices and reasonings for these corespond perfectly with out DND characters.

shirkersama
I don't think an arrow from a yew bow would pierce bronze armor…I'm not sure though, I shall research and possibly change my vote.
Nope sticking with them 2. Armor's were it's at.
Also I just noticed that or choices and reasonings for these corespond perfectly with out DND characters.

Even if it couldn't a good enough aim could take them in the head. I just assume that all people who's job it is to kill people with bows should be a good aim.

Also the other two guys on Team 2 could distract Team 1 while he picked them off from a distance.

I love me some ranged weapons.

Longbows are good for shooting targets from far away, but aren't the most accurate, I don't think a headshot is a reasonable expectation unless they're very close at which point their probably screwed anyway.
The main problem For team 2 would actually be the mongolian, in my opinion, cause he'd make short work of the other calvary and then our infantry have to deal with a mounted soldier. And calvary>infantry.
But I'm still sticking with the armored team. Defense is were it's at.

shirkersama
Longbows are good for shooting targets from far away, but aren't the most accurate, I don't think a headshot is a reasonable expectation unless they're very close at which point their probably screwed anyway.
The main problem For team 2 would actually be the mongolian, in my opinion, cause he'd make short work of the other calvary and then our infantry have to deal with a mounted soldier. And calvary>infantry.
But I'm still sticking with the armored team. Defense is were it's at.

*sigh* I'm changing my vote to team 1.

The man with a large shield could beat the bowman, but the calvary would be too much. This is uneven.

Well, we did randomize who was on which team. And to make sure we got the match out while people were still interested, it had to be done fast. Next time, we'll think on it before. But, the voting ends in a week since I put up the post for votes. Plus we'll be going back to one on one soon, and it'll be less confusing then, okay?

I'm not supposed to be debating here, I'd just like to point out to everyone team 1 doesn't have the advantage everyone is saying they do.

Having mounted heavy cavalry is a huge plus, but Cavalry defense 101 is get your spear in front of you. With two spears on team two, the cavalry's effectiveness is reduced. Add in that he's only got 25 meters to built up momentum across a narrow bridge means he has pretty much no charge at all, and hoplites have a huge, multi-layered shield. In addition, historically speaking, the Mamluks beat the Mongols two out of three times.

Hakoshen
I'm not supposed to be debating here, I'd just like to point out to everyone team 1 doesn't have the advantage everyone is saying they do.

Having mounted heavy cavalry is a huge plus, but Cavalry defense 101 is get your spear in front of you. With two spears on team two, the cavalry's effectiveness is reduced. Add in that he's only got 25 meters to built up momentum across a narrow bridge means he has pretty much no charge at all, and hoplites have a huge, multi-layered shield. In addition, historically speaking, the Mamluks beat the Mongols two out of three times.

The ranged archer>calvary with no armor.

I'm also going for team 1. The English bowmen were one of the best archers of medieval Europe. They destroyed the French armies who sported heavily armored knights because their arrows could pierce their plates.

Also, Mongolian Cavalryman outtrumps the Mamluk Cavalry. The Mongolian one has a spear which has a longer reach then the Mamluk saber.

The Mongolian Cavalryman has the luxury of ignoring team 2's spearmen and go after his mounted opponent, thus getting rid of team 2's fastest member. The bowman can then kill the other two while the Ceitherne soldier protects him.

alwinbot
The ranged archer>calvary with no armor.

Well yeah, I never said *that* wouldn't happen, lol. My point was that in the situation presented, the cavalry are both minimally effective.

…Also there's an interesting documentary on Medieval English weaponry (ie: Robin Hood) on right no on the History channel. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

2

Hakoshen
I'm not supposed to be debating here.

Wait we arn't suppose to debate?

No, everyone can debate. That's kinda the point, and it would take away the fun of it for the owners of the thread if they couldn't take part. Besides, your vote doesn't have to be logical, it's just better if it is. And no, they aren't worth more the more reason there is, they are all worth the same, just have fun.

It's pretty much decided that Team 1 will win.

alwinbot
It's pretty much decided that Team 1 will win.

High five for being on the winning team!

Mettaur
No, everyone can debate.

Oh.


Well here's how I see the fight going; The cavalry might charge each other in the middle of the bridge. Moving in a straight line it's essentially a joust, and the Mongolian cavalry will likely win, especially with his armor. The Arabian horse, being larger and more powerful than the Mongolian horse will probably panic or run, or with no real room to turn, he may very well fall off the bridge altogether. At this point the hoplite and ashigaru would have been close behind, as is the ceitherene, and the bowman could take a shot, but given the proximity of events he probably wont hit anything but the horse or the hopelite's shield.

With no additional room to charge, the Mongolian horse is now just a huge target, and is going to be easily killed by the survivors of team 2, and likely the rider as well. In a close battle between the hoplite and the ceitherne, the hoplite would probably win as his shield is not only massive, but impenetrable to the axe and a weapon in and of itself. Unless, however, the Ashigaru is hiding behind the hoplite, which he probably wouldn't, he's going to be easy prey for the bowman. Assuming then that the ashigaru is killed by the bowman, and the ceitherne by the hoplite, this leaves the hoplite versus the bowman.

English arrows were iron tipped and could pierce the steel plate of knights, much less the bronze plate of the hopelite. It all really depends on whether or not the bowman can get a shot, and bowmen typically, unless they were going to rain arrows on the enemy from afar would wait until the enemy was in very close proximity (say 20 meters or so) so he would be in prime shooting range. So if the archer was any typical archer, he's aiming for center mass, which means he's going to hit shield. His only real opportunity is to hit the hopelite's foot, and at any time the hopelite COULD use his spear in the means of a javelin, though not likely. So while we will assume the bowman is a professional soldier, he's not a tactical genius, and he's going to take the shot he can get, which means he's going to be killed.



Alternatively, if the cavalry did NOT charge, and waited in return, the Mamluk is going to be shot, no questions asked. At which point, all the Mongol and the bowman would have to do is back up while the ceithere engages them. Regardless of who they then choose to attack, they will be vulnerable from the other trooper. If the ashigaru attacked the mongolian, he would probably kill the horse and topple the horse, though he'd probably be killed by the fall itself or the Mongol's lance. Conversely, the previous argument regarding the hoplite and bowman would recommence. It's also possible though that the Mongol would dismount, and then he and the Ashigaru would be on equal ground.


So my vote is officially going to go to team 2.

Hakoshen
English arrows were iron tipped and could pierce the steel plate of knights, much less the bronze plate of the hopelite. It all really depends on whether or not the bowman can get a shot, and bowmen typically, unless they were going to rain arrows on the enemy from afar would wait until the enemy was in very close proximity (say 20 meters or so) so he would be in prime shooting range. So if the archer was any typical archer, he's aiming for center mass, which means he's going to hit shield.

Why can't the bowmen shot the Yari Ashigaru or Mamluk Cavalry? Why does he have to go after the Militia?

Hakoshen
Alternatively, if the cavalry did NOT charge, and waited in return, the Mamluk is going to be shot, no questions asked. At which point, all the Mongol and the bowman would have to do is back up while the ceithere engages them. Regardless of who they then choose to attack, they will be vulnerable from the other trooper. If the ashigaru attacked the mongolian, he would probably kill the horse and topple the horse, though he'd probably be killed by the fall itself or the Mongol's lance. Conversely, the previous argument regarding the hoplite and bowman would recommence. It's also possible though that the Mongol would dismount, and then he and the Ashigaru would be on equal ground.

Once agian why must the bowmen go after the only person with a shield? Also whats the length of both the Mongol's spear and the Yari's spear? Cause if the Mongol has the greater reach then he has the advantage.

The Bowmen's practice range was not allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII. So he is fairly adept at shoting long range. I'm not saying he can hit all the time but an archer could hit a person at 165 meters “part of the time.” And with a firerate of 11 arrows a minute I think he would be the key of the fight.

Even if he waits until they are in the “60 meter” sweet spot you mentioned they could take out the Yari or Mamluk before they could be a threat.

TheFlyingGreenMonkey
Why can't the bowmen shot the Yari Ashigaru or Mamluk Cavalry? Why does he have to go after the Militia?

Hakoshen
Well I already said in this sceneario the cavalry charged each other and the infantry were close behind. If they were all standing at the entrance to the bridge, the archer's line of sight would be completely blocked. In the time it would take him to move to the side to get a line of sight, the militia and ashigaru are on the bridge as well, more than likely with the militia in front.

Once agian why must the bowmen go after the only person with a shield? Also whats the length of both the Mongol's spear and the Yari's spear? Cause if the Mongol has the greater reach then he has the advantage.

The Bowmen's practice range was not allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII. So he is fairly adept at shoting long range. I'm not saying he can hit all the time but an archer could hit a person at 165 meters “part of the time.” And with a firerate of 11 arrows a minute I think he would be the key of the fight.

Even if he waits until they are in the “60 meter” sweet spot you mentioned they could take out the Yari or Mamluk before they could be a threat.

Well the first thing I said in that segment was he's going to kill the Mamluk; he's dead no matter how you look at it. Secondly, arrows were expensive, and they had to count. Practice range was as you described it, but in typical warfare conditions for the kind of smiping we're talking they waited until the infantry was closer. He could start shooting right away, but he's as likely to hit his own allies.

Plus, this archer is from the court of Henry V.

And the Ashigaru's spears were pretty long, as in upwards of 4 meters like most infantry, and Mongolian spears were more of lances so they were roughtly 3 meters, plus the Ashigaru's goal isn't necessarily to attack the rider, but the horse. Cavalry typically have the advantage over infantry, but spear infantry is the exception. One on one though, it really depends on how brave the horse is and how brave the spearman is. I the horse rears

Hakoshen

TheFlyingGreenMonkey
Why can't the bowmen shot the Yari Ashigaru or Mamluk Cavalry? Why does he have to go after the Militia?

Hakoshen
Well I already said in this sceneario the cavalry charged each other and the infantry were close behind. If they were all standing at the entrance to the bridge, the archer's line of sight would be completely blocked. In the time it would take him to move to the side to get a line of sight, the militia and ashigaru are on the bridge as well, more than likely with the militia in front.

Once agian why must the bowmen go after the only person with a shield? Also whats the length of both the Mongol's spear and the Yari's spear? Cause if the Mongol has the greater reach then he has the advantage.

The Bowmen's practice range was not allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII. So he is fairly adept at shoting long range. I'm not saying he can hit all the time but an archer could hit a person at 165 meters “part of the time.” And with a firerate of 11 arrows a minute I think he would be the key of the fight.

Even if he waits until they are in the “60 meter” sweet spot you mentioned they could take out the Yari or Mamluk before they could be a threat.

Well the first thing I said in that segment was he's going to kill the Mamluk; he's dead no matter how you look at it. Secondly, arrows were expensive, and they had to count. Practice range was as you described it, but in typical warfare conditions for the kind of smiping we're talking they waited until the infantry was closer. He could start shooting right away, but he's as likely to hit his own allies.

Plus, this archer is from the court of Henry V.

And the Ashigaru's spears were pretty long, as in upwards of 4 meters like most infantry, and Mongolian spears were more of lances so they were roughtly 3 meters, plus the Ashigaru's goal isn't necessarily to attack the rider, but the horse. Cavalry typically have the advantage over infantry, but spear infantry is the exception. One on one though, it really depends on how brave the horse is and how brave the spearman is. I the horse rears

But this is my sceneario. Mamluk charges,with Yari following close behind and then the Militia. Bowmen picks Mamluk off. Then picks off Yari. Only one left is Militia. Three vs. one team 1 wins.

Or Mamluk charges, with Militia followed by Yari. Bowmen picks off Mamluk. Can't pick off Militia. Caitherne charges at Militia. Militia dies(I like axes). Leaving Yari. Lets say Yari wins and Bowmen picks him off agian.

Team 1 wins.

Hakoshen

Mettaur
No, everyone can debate.

Oh.


Well here's how I see the fight going; The cavalry might charge each other in the middle of the bridge. Moving in a straight line it's essentially a joust, and the Mongolian cavalry will likely win, especially with his armor. The Arabian horse, being larger and more powerful than the Mongolian horse will probably panic or run, or with no real room to turn, he may very well fall off the bridge altogether. At this point the hoplite and ashigaru would have been close behind, as is the ceitherene, and the bowman could take a shot, but given the proximity of events he probably wont hit anything but the horse or the hopelite's shield.

With no additional room to charge, the Mongolian horse is now just a huge target, and is going to be easily killed by the survivors of team 2, and likely the rider as well. In a close battle between the hoplite and the ceitherne, the hoplite would probably win as his shield is not only massive, but impenetrable to the axe and a weapon in and of itself. Unless, however, the Ashigaru is hiding behind the hoplite, which he probably wouldn't, he's going to be easy prey for the bowman. Assuming then that the ashigaru is killed by the bowman, and the ceitherne by the hoplite, this leaves the hoplite versus the bowman.

English arrows were iron tipped and could pierce the steel plate of knights, much less the bronze plate of the hopelite. It all really depends on whether or not the bowman can get a shot, and bowmen typically, unless they were going to rain arrows on the enemy from afar would wait until the enemy was in very close proximity (say 20 meters or so) so he would be in prime shooting range. So if the archer was any typical archer, he's aiming for center mass, which means he's going to hit shield. His only real opportunity is to hit the hopelite's foot, and at any time the hopelite COULD use his spear in the means of a javelin, though not likely. So while we will assume the bowman is a professional soldier, he's not a tactical genius, and he's going to take the shot he can get, which means he's going to be killed.



Alternatively, if the cavalry did NOT charge, and waited in return, the Mamluk is going to be shot, no questions asked. At which point, all the Mongol and the bowman would have to do is back up while the ceithere engages them. Regardless of who they then choose to attack, they will be vulnerable from the other trooper. If the ashigaru attacked the mongolian, he would probably kill the horse and topple the horse, though he'd probably be killed by the fall itself or the Mongol's lance. Conversely, the previous argument regarding the hoplite and bowman would recommence. It's also possible though that the Mongol would dismount, and then he and the Ashigaru would be on equal ground.


So my vote is officially going to go to team 2.

The thing about axe not beating the shield isn't true. The axeman's axe is probably iron which will crush bronze shield.

The thing about spears is that if it misses the first lunge, then the time it takes to take the second lunge is an eternity in a fight.

alwinbot

The thing about axe not beating the shield isn't true. The axeman's axe is probably iron which will crush bronze shield.

The thing about spears is that if it misses the first lunge, then the time it takes to take the second lunge is an eternity in a fight.


Probably iron, yes, but as History's Deadliest warrior proved if the full recourse of a steel polearm couldn't do more than dent a hoplite shield, which is bronze with multiple layers of wood, an iron axe wouldn't either.

As for missing a spear thrust being the end of the fight, well that's simply wrong. It takes no longer to thrust a spear than it does to swing a sword, plus given their weight they're fairly easy to strike with accurately. The militiaman *could* lock the spear down, but then he has to deal with the shield;

Hakoshen

alwinbot

The thing about axe not beating the shield isn't true. The axeman's axe is probably iron which will crush bronze shield.

The thing about spears is that if it misses the first lunge, then the time it takes to take the second lunge is an eternity in a fight.

Probably iron, yes, but as History's Deadliest warrior proved if the full recourse of a steel polearm couldn't do more than dent a hoplite shield, which is bronze with multiple layers of wood, an iron axe wouldn't either.

As for missing a spear thrust being the end of the fight, well that's simply wrong. It takes no longer to thrust a spear than it does to swing a sword, plus given their weight they're fairly easy to strike with accurately. The militiaman *could* lock the spear down, but then he has to deal with the shield;


Man, Deadliest Warrior also told me that there's space in a lunge that isn't really present in a shorter range weapon. The weaponry is heavy though, so the fighting could be sluggish.

Well, it was perhaps wrong of me to say that a spear thrust is as quick, but it's certainly not a large gap of time. With a two handed grip on a sword, my experience suggests the sword is clearly faster because you're moving a shorter object in a smaller radius. The difference isn't phenomenal though, only in the fractions of a second, which at his long range gives him time for one, maybe two more strikes before being closed upon, and that too depends on how the person attacking the spear closed.