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Abt_Nihil at 3:59PM, Aug. 2, 2010
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(Original comments from ch. 1 pg. 17.)

alschroeder
Wait.

What?

The big dramatic death is someone we haven't SEEN before?

Just a suggestion: it would have been better to have SEEN Watchman, and THEN blown him up.

Unless you're going to do a LOT of backstory, like Comedian in…well…Watchmen.

Don't get me wrong: I've been enjoying the story up till now, and you might have some big reason for not revealing Watchman till after he's blown to bits. And maybe he was introduced somewhere and I missed it. (I went back and reread the story twice, to try to make sure.) But…

Dramatically…

Just for me…

It kinds of misses the target.
The point is, it's NOT a “big dramatic death”. (In case it was the ad on HU which made you think that, I apologize. That was a joke - a parody of similar advertisements for “big dramatic” comic book deaths.) And you're right, Watchmen has never even been mentioned before.
I won't explain myself, as all of these things have been planned in a larger context. So my remark that it's not supposed to be a “”big dramatic death" to begin with must suffice for now.

alschroeder
Fair enough. You know the ending and I don't. Just thought it seemed a little odd, but we'll see if there's a method to your madness.
You know I appreciate your input - that goes without saying. But your comment sounds like there's some universal rule that says superheroes can't die like bystanders would. I just don't see that. As I wrote, I won't discuss the ultimate purpose of his death, as that would contain spoilers. But for now, I don't see why we couldn't simply accept that the world is full of superheroes (a concept which seems to go natural with what's been established on HU), and some just happen to die without anyone looking. I mean, would it make any difference if it hadn't been a superhero, but someone who's part of the embassy's cleaning staff?

(This point should be valid on its own, because you shouldn't expect a big reveal about why Watchman had to die in this or the next chapter. The third will expand on it in some way, but probably not in the way your comment suggests, so if you're unhappy now, chances are you won't be satiesfied later either.)
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
sux at 5:08PM, Aug. 2, 2010
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I agree with you there Abt, Sometimes super heroes just die off-screen, and since I know stuff will be expanded on, I know his death will make sense later on.
I like my horror films like I love my burgers…Full of Cheese!!

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Sebastian_Sandberg at 7:16PM, Aug. 2, 2010
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Ouch. Suffice to say, I knew this would happen with that misleading hoax ad. I hoped my comment about it being a hoax would have cleared it up though, but…
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
sux at 8:15PM, Aug. 2, 2010
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I actually liked that Watchman's death wasn't a big dramatic thing, since it allows us to see that even a simple death is strong, I mean Watchman's death is just as symbolic as Superman's if you will allow me to use that analogy.

And nothing is small in a story like this, everything is significant, a simple death like that can expand what happens to the people it truly affects, like in the story, even though we don't know Watchman, he was seen as a great hero and that he touched alot of people, so his death is still powerful

Sorry if I went too into it, but I really like how this story is going and I tend to look into things intently :D
I like my horror films like I love my burgers…Full of Cheese!!

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Abt_Nihil at 8:44AM, Aug. 3, 2010
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Sebastian_Sandberg
Ouch. Suffice to say, I knew this would happen with that misleading hoax ad. I hoped my comment about it being a hoax would have cleared it up though, but…
Why so serious?

sux: Thanks. I do try to make sure that deaths have some sort of significance, but I guess you'd decide the significance on a case-by-case basis. Generally, I believe it's bad taste to let a lot of (fictitious! :D) people die for no good reason. But as I wrote, the main point is - superheroes happen to die like everyone else.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
sux at 10:47AM, Aug. 3, 2010
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Sebastian_Sandberg
Ouch. Suffice to say, I knew this would happen with that misleading hoax ad. I hoped my comment about it being a hoax would have cleared it up though, but…

I liked the ad, it really drew me in :)
I like my horror films like I love my burgers…Full of Cheese!!

last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
AzuJOD at 9:04PM, Aug. 3, 2010
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If it's any consultation, I thought the whole “someone's-gonna-die-oh-nobody-important” thing was quite clever.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Abt_Nihil at 5:31AM, Aug. 4, 2010
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AzuJOD
If it's any consultation, I thought the whole “someone's-gonna-die-oh-nobody-important” thing was quite clever.
Heheh, thanks :3 The fact that I apologized to Al for encouraging wrong expectations doesn't mean I learned my lesson - I would certainly do it again! :P
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
alschroeder at 5:55AM, Aug. 4, 2010
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Look, sorry, I didn't want this to be a big deal…

And yeah, I WAS sucked in by the ad here at http://www.drunkduck.com/Heroes_Unite/index.php?p=724396—and assumed it WAS somebody big (which I know was not actually said, but it's an inference made by the activity of Shell, Relik, Bombshell, et al)—and I must not have seen Sebastian's comment that it was “nobody important” since it wasn't on the thread below the ad…

Not HUGE. Maybe Hellfire (whose comic is discontinued) or somebody like that. I just felt…

…as a READER…

…A little cheated.

The same way I felt by all those Weisinger-era ads that would have a cover where it implies a huge deal was going to take place, like Superman being beaten to a pulp, and we learn in the story it's an actor made UP as Superman who gets beaten up. Technically correct, but I still felt …cheated.

The thing is, if _I_ felt that way, I doubt I was the only one.

I'm not saying a hero's death is more important than other people's. Sometimes anonymous deaths are good, like the kids who died at the beginning of Marvel's CIVIL WAR.

My expectations were built up one way by the ad, and I must have missed where Sebastian et al said it was going to be nobody important.

I STILL think introducing Watchman before his death might have been a good idea.

But it's done, and let's move on, okay?

—Al

Al Schroeder of MINDMISTRESS http://mindmistress.comicgenesis.com—think the superhero genre is mined out?

Think there are no new superhero ideas?

Think again.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Abt_Nihil at 10:28AM, Aug. 4, 2010
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alschroeder
The same way I felt by all those Weisinger-era ads that would have a cover where it implies a huge deal was going to take place, like Superman being beaten to a pulp, and we learn in the story it's an actor made UP as Superman who gets beaten up. Technically correct, but I still felt …cheated.
That's the same way I felt (- Toward the reprints, I wasn't actually around in that era). So, I wanted the ad on HU to make fun of that trend back then.

alschroeder
I STILL think introducing Watchman before his death might have been a good idea.
I hope that once the puzzle is complete, the way it's been handled will make a bit more sense. I agree that establishing Watchman as a character would have caused his death to make more of an impact on the audience, but for now I can just say: that wasn't what I meant to be the point of that scene. The way the scene is handled is more akin to watching a news report in which a police offer laments the death of his partner, who was killed in action. Do we really need to know his partner? If you're aiming for greatest emotional impact, yes, but the “realistic” way is to accept that you'll never know most of the people whose death is being reported on TV.

alschroeder
But it's done, and let's move on, okay?
Sure ^_^
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Sebastian_Sandberg at 3:04PM, Aug. 4, 2010
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Al: My comment was a bit delayed, so I had to place it a few pages after it to cover everything that had been revealed when I was up in the North for a week away from the computer. It was not easy to spot. I'm just paraphrasing here, but I think it went something like “I think this ad is very misleading, since it has zero squat to do with revenge.” I objected more to there being talk of retribution, which there would be none (At least not in HA #1-2) while I guess I didn't exactly object to that there would be death. I was worried about backlash when I wrote it though.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM
Sebastian_Sandberg at 5:41AM, Aug. 22, 2010
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Abt_Nihil
I should have said, “that's why he's wearing a full face mask instead of a domino mask” or something. I admit, it was a very bad joke, but it just had to be made. And here I thought the heroic build was the authentic part, and the zits exaggerated. (Bad jokes need company, even if they're completely off topic.)

On a more serious note, it's interesting how you tend to emphasize that Virtus is based on yourself. I've had many discussions about how characters are in some way reflections of their creator, but obviously, the degree to which that is true differs.

(Again, sorry for being off-topic - if this leads to any discussion, there's the discussion thread ^_^)

Off-topic discussion about how much of ourselves is reflected in our creations is moved to here from now on.

Whatever you say, Letterman. XD I know you're joking, but that won't keep me from opening myself to discussion about it.

Seb Sanders/Virtus started out as a Sonic fancharacter (as Speedslide, also the origin of my DA username) because that used to be the only style I could draw in. As such, he was a RP character with many of my character strengths, but few of my flaws.

I became jaded by various topics on Mary Stues and such when I made the transition into superhero comics. Virtus shares pretty much everything I genuinely believe in. The morals of Superman, but at the street level of Spidey. I was lucky enough to grow up with my mom's Silver Age comics rather than Dark Age comics in the 90s after all. Unfortunately, that makes him seem like a self-glorification of the author, namely me.

Thing is, I couldn't make Virtus less of a sweetheart without feeling like betraying myself, so I figured, if I couldn't make the character humble, then I could make his complexion humble. Sure, he has a little of the superhero build dominant, but that's generally just to make him easier to draw.

It also makes sense from the slight-but-not-quite-over-the-top-boring-or-depressing-realism point of view I employ. At 20, I still wear a cap every summer because I feel naked without it, and there's no doubt that I would probably have a much fairer facial complexion without it. A full-body suit worn not quite 24/7 but close enough generally wouldn't allow anyone to get a decent tan, which is also a contributing factor to battling acne.

Add that to the whole accelerated metabolism thing, and it just sorta clicks into place, at least in my head.

All my best characters are generally based on friends, family and alike.

One thing I guess you can say about me is that I put some thought into many decisions. But as for the topic of character looks, all boils down to one saying I live by: “True beauty is diversity.” And I try to show that in the Virtusverse with guys and girls that are short, tall, of all different body types, existing side by side with the more traditional heroic builds. Both define each other. The fact that characters such as Swamp Thing, Rorschach, Thing and still have fangirls both in-universe and in the real world despite being drawn with not entirely flawless complexions just proves my point.
last edited on July 18, 2011 10:16AM

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