Forgot to mention…
Something that might affect your thinking on this whole “invaders from ww2” idea.
Harkovast has a relatively primitive infrastructure so lacks the means to deploy and support the vast armies of the scale of ww1 or ww2.
The big battles in Harkovast are fought between a few thousand people.
To give an idea of scale-
The Ivos empire can deploy about 40,000 soldiers in total.
More primitive societies like the Ano-Chee could probably deploy more like about 8000.

Fluffwise the SM are the strongest force in the galaxy…. except for necrons. Of course, in game necrons are sadly quite awful nowm as they haven't had an update in something like 14 years..
The IG have really come a long way on the tabletop. All my arguments for the SM's power was fluff based.
Librarians supposedly have access to many hidden stores of knowledge, and even Chaos spellbooks if they are good enough little boys. They are supposedly the equal of a sorceror… But not usually.
Fluff-wise, 1 chapter could annihilate a planet under most circumstances.
SM have the advantage of EXTREMELY superior technology. Storm bolters, thunderhammers, and power swords can kill a demon.. sometimes. Chaptlains and commanders might have access to blessed weapons, which work a bit better. Anyways, let's not get into a discussion about who is strongest, tabletop and/or fluff. It will get silly very fast.

(Honestly, I love Chaos the most, Nurgle specifically. What a kindly old man, and generous with his gifts!) Chaos is evil and pure evil in WH40k. Sure, each one offers gifts to their followers, but each has disadvantages, and will eat your soul if you die. One of the reasons they Chaos gods are so hard to fight is BECAUSE they represent basic human emotions/desires. As long as humans feel these emotions, the chaos gods grow stronger. It's why the Eldar are so emotionless.. They don't want to feed Slaanesh, or even draw his attention. Of course, the other end of the spectrum from chaos is the necrons and not many people willingly follow their ideals.

For the most part, outside of the Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Necrons, there are no real “bad guys”. The tyranids are just hungry, orks love fighting, Eldar are trying to protect themselves, Tau want to spread the mantra any way they can, and the Imperium wants to survive. All the groups do evil, even the Tau (which some people don't realize. They brainwash people and the Vespid didn't join all that willingly)
That makes it hard to tell a story there, as there are few true heroes. I do love Ciaphas Cain and Malus Darkblade, though. One is a hero, the other is DEFINATELY a villain, but both are entertaining.

The various forces of good and evil have been defined over the years in books and games. Chaos wants all the souls of humanity, as at heart they are hungering beasts. Necrons want to kill all life, as it is an anathema to them. Dark Eldar want to sacrifice souls to Slaanesh in the hopes that they will be spared his hunger. Orks love fighting, and are too stupid to ever go beyond that. Really, those are the only ‘evils’. The Imperium is filled with less than pleasant groups (the Inquisition, Ultramarines, Sisters of Battle… fanatic killers, all) but the focus is generally on the less crazy people in the stories.

That's not fair comparing GW to Lotr. EVERYONE bases their fantasy on Lotr, it's what DEFINED the modern fantasy movement!

Sauron was a pushover anyways. Melchior is where it's at!

The Chaos gods are totally alive, and are often summoned in avatars and demon princes! The Necron deities often appear as well, as does Khaine of the Eldar. It would be hard to kill the actual gods, though. The Emperor could have done it when he was alive, and in fact that is part of why the Horus heresy happened. It was Chaos' last chance to obtain power. I suspect the GE could have beaten the remaining Necron deities as well, and, in fact, was probably suspicious of the cult of the Omnissiah. It is hinted that they worship the Void dragon at the center of Mars.

I didn't think they had highways, trains, landing strips, or modern ports. All of that would have to be built.

But since they locals wouldn't be used to fighting in trench warfare at it's peak, they would all be oblitorated by automatic fire and artillery… That would make for a short war. *Entire army of Harkovast natives line up* “Why are they all sitting in ditches?” “Who cares, that just means they will be easier to kill! They're just sitting there waiting for us to attack! Wait, what's that sound?” *BOOOM!* If they don't flee in the face of what seems to be powerful battle magic, they would be ripped to shreds anyways… And assuming the invaders set up some decent earthworks, the only ones that could get close would have to teleport/fly over the barbed wire, mines, and dodge anti air fire to do any damage at all. This would be fun to watch, I think. Middle-ages army charging trenches, unaware of all the traps and bullets about to make their day a little bit less pleasant. Could ANY race match 1 million soldiers from WW II all prepared and equipped for a fight?

I want to fight abstract concepts too! Can I fight modern music and pop culture?

Every 40K race has it's advantages.

Necrons are creepy. I hate em, hate em good.

And I like the Guard and both Eldar. Totally opposite styles of play.

But I have to disagree on thing. The Space Marines don't need a chapter to wipe out a planet… a company should do.

SM tech superior? Some of it. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of any of them, but particularly a wraithcannon. I am not interested in a trip to the warp, thanks.

Well, the chaos gods may be evil (though I see them more as natural), but their followers are not necessarily evil, in fact many of them see the Imperium as a tyranny that needs to be destroyed. Then again I think it's hard to defend their actions… But they may not be entirely evil.

Necrons are mindless servants… it's not really their fault, they just got jealous. Orks are crazy killing machines, but, eh, it's not their fault either really.

The Dark Eldar are depraved psychos. They are evil, almost completely, the soul eating bastards, but they do have a nearly mitigating factor… desperation.

And the Tau piss me off. I don't know why but they do. Maybe it's because they're all pansies.

Eh. Lotr is the default fantasy… and it ripped off so many myths I can't count.

Sauron? A pushover? Yeah. Pretty much. He has a tendency to get humiliated by people who are technically weaker than him, plus he's stupid. Morgoth or Gothmog are the way to go! Morgoth was a good overall evil overlord, just a bit of a coward. Gothmog could at least fight, and was a brilliant strategist, though he liked to fight elves himself too much.

I don't think the God Emperor could kill the Gods themselves. Chaos exists because of emotion, and the C'tan keep coming back unless you eat them, Khaine… well, he was awesome enough to actually take out the Nightbringer for a little while, and it took Slannesh using the full power of the rest of the Eldar gods to scatter Khaine, not even kill him. And the Harlequin jester is just too smart.

Problem is that everything wouldn't be decided by a single battle, and the Harkies would learn. Then we would see some fireworks. And I maintain that we just don't know what some of the Harkovasties could do. Even the speaker… maybe he can more than just talking, after all, he is the evil of Mind, and that could mean anything from psychic powers to illusions.

Hark, the SMs in the Board Game are dumbed down a significant amount from the fluff marines, or movie marines.

Also, chaos isn't necessarily evil… But Sauron is a character, not an abstract concept, just because he's a giant eyeball doesn't make him abstract, in fact Sauron actually fits your criteria. That would be like saying that Casper (the friendly ghost) is an abstract concept! But, otherwise I agree, it is kind of silly, but it happens! *Mutters something about Bush*

“Every 40K race has it's advantages.”
Except Dark Eldar. They suck. Melee is their only good skill, and how often is THAT likely to happen?

“Necrons are creepy. I hate em, hate em good.”
Awww, but they just want to help you! Leave this life, that is.
And I like the Guard and both Eldar. Totally opposite styles of play.

“But I have to disagree on thing. The Space Marines don't need a chapter to wipe out a planet… a company should do.”
A single space marine could wipe some races out by himself, I would imagine. Just

“SM tech superior? Some of it. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of any of them, but particularly a wraithcannon. I am not interested in a trip to the warp, thanks.”
Superior to the tech in Harkovast, sure. Superior to Eldar, Tau, or Necron tech? Hell no, and I doubt it will ever advance because they hate change anymore. Change led to the Horus Heresy, and so they don't want anymore of it.

“Well, the chaos gods may be evil (though I see them more as natural), but their followers are not necessarily evil, in fact many of them see the Imperium as a tyranny that needs to be destroyed. Then again I think it's hard to defend their actions… But they may not be entirely evil.”
The Chaos gods aren't evil, per se, but they represent some of the worst emotions of humanity. Therefore their actions cause lots of death and destruction. All their followers are evil and or insane. Whether their intentions were good at first or not (how often is worshiping a dark deity a ‘good intention’?) they are quickly corrupted by the power and the warp. That's just what the warp does. The ‘Creator race’ were what corrupted it in their war against the C'tan, because they are jerks.

“Necrons are mindless servants… it's not really their fault, they just got jealous. Orks are crazy killing machines, but, eh, it's not their fault either really.”
The Necron Lords have a choice, as they retain full consciousness. They just believe that death throughout the universe is really the best thing to strive for.

“The Dark Eldar are depraved psychos. They are evil, almost completely, the soul eating bastards, but they do have a nearly mitigating factor… desperation. ”
And rapists, sadists, and just generally unpleasant. Oh, come on, after more than 40000 years you would think they would see that their way of doing things doesn't work. Time to make a change!

“And the Tau piss me off. I don't know why but they do. Maybe it's because they're all pansies.”
And they are brainwashing, imperial jerks. Plus, they seem tailor made for weeaboos. ADURP DURP, GUNDAMN SOOTZ THAT ARE ALSO INVISIBLE.

“Eh. Lotr is the default fantasy… and it ripped off so many myths I can't count.”
At it's heart, everything was ripped off of everything, back to the first story told by cavemen, so that argument is invalid.

“Sauron? A pushover? Yeah. Pretty much. He has a tendency to get humiliated by people who are technically weaker than him, plus he's stupid. Morgoth or Gothmog are the way to go! Morgoth was a good overall evil overlord, just a bit of a coward. Gothmog could at least fight, and was a brilliant strategist, though he liked to fight elves himself too much.”
Come on, man. You want evil? Think big! Melchior and Shielob! Melchior INVENTED EVIL in middle earth! He personally ended 2 ages, and led to the end of the 3rd age. He created dragons, balrogs, and corrupted elves to become orcs. What's not to like?

“I don't think the God Emperor could kill the Gods themselves. Chaos exists because of emotion, and the C'tan keep coming back unless you eat them, Khaine… well, he was awesome enough to actually take out the Nightbringer for a little while, and it took Slannesh using the full power of the rest of the Eldar gods to scatter Khaine, not even kill him. And the Harlequin jester is just too smart.”
He was (and still is, apparently) able to hold off all 4 of the chaos gods from just coming to the real world and eating all the souls of humanity. I think, 1 on 1, he could have damaged them to the point where they would be replaced by another deity… which could then be smacked down. I think that if the original Golden throne had been completed, humanity would no longer need the warp. Without a constant use of the warp, perhaps the demons would die down.

“Problem is that everything wouldn't be decided by a single battle, and the Harkies would learn. Then we would see some fireworks. And I maintain that we just don't know what some of the Harkovasties could do. Even the speaker… maybe he can more than just talking, after all, he is the evil of Mind, and that could mean anything from psychic powers to illusions.”
Unless they antagonize the whole world, I would think that they would fight only 1 nation. Of course, the Nameless and evils would enter eventually, but by then I would think the humans would have learned about magic and it's effects. Perhaps even a way to counter/cancel it, of only for a short period of time.. Like an EMP.

“Hark, the SMs in the Board Game are dumbed down a significant amount from the fluff marines, or movie marines.”
They don't want SM to be utterly unbeatable. In fact, to make it harder, play as the Angry Marines chapter. Melee weapons only!

“Also, chaos isn't necessarily evil… But Sauron is a character, not an abstract concept, just because he's a giant eyeball doesn't make him abstract, in fact Sauron actually fits your criteria. That would be like saying that Casper (the friendly ghost) is an abstract concept! But, otherwise I agree, it is kind of silly, but it happens! *Mutters something about Bush*”
Chaos as a concept isn't evil, but the Chaos gods are. They live only to consume and destroy, a classic definition of evil. Sauron never (in the trilogy) did anything. It was all his minions, that's probably where he is getting that.

As an Eldar player I was always somewhat jealous of the longer range on the DE warrior's rifles… and I was under the impression that if used properly the DE were absolutely unstoppable. Just that doesn't happen. Almost ever. They really are a difficult race to use. But that Splinter Cannon! Dear goodness! four shots and it's an assault 24 inch range weapon! I've butchered Nids and Necrons with these guys (then again, it was a pretty small group), don't be dissing the Dark Eldar.

Point about the number of marines need for an extermination… one marine is good. Or one guy pushing a button on the battle barge works too.

Meh, not everyone's mind is completely twisted on the side of Chaos, they're just generally nuts. And calling them “Dark Deities” is viewing them through the Imperium's perspective lense. Okay, Khorne is nuts, but Nurgle ain't necessarily too bad. Tzeench, well, you can't trust him to remain constant, but he isn't necessarily evil. Slaneesh is… eeesh, a hedonistic creep.

Eh, I still think that the Creator Race made the Tyranids and sent them to make sure the Necrons never wake up.

Well, sometimes change depends on the death of a generation… and some of the DE who survived the fall are still alive. Vect for example.

Yeah, that might be it about the Tau.

True, I never really said it was valid, just pointing it out, not an effort to take away from LOTR.

Shelob was a wuss, talk to her mother Ungoliante. She attacked Morgoth and it took the Balrogs to save his ass. And, Morgoth is what Feanor called Melkor (as my version spells it), and so all the Noldor came to call him that. Morgoth means “Dark (Mor) Enemy (goth)” as a literal translation of the Quenya. Gothmog was Morgoth's captain and field commander, he killed Feanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion of the fountain (Though Echthelion killed him too, with some help). I'm kinda a Tolkien nerd. I've read the Silmarillion faaar too many times.

I was unaware that The Emperor was constantly struggling against the Gods of the Warp. I thought he just sat there. That's what the Eldar seem to think (or at least say) and they usually have it right.

Even if they did take on one nation at a time I'm pretty sure word would get around and something would be done. And we're talking WW1 tech here, I doubt that they would be able to create a kind of counter magic EMP before dealing with the more powerful people. Though they would probably have figured out about magic and thought real carefully about it too.

“Poke em inna eye!” Is from the Angry Marines I believe.

Okay, I'll admit that Sauron doesn't do much directly ‘cept stare unnervingly at people. But the KITW hasn’t done much yet himself… I'm waiting for that to change though. As I hope it will…

Sorry, I just never thought Space Marines were that impressive.
If you have a power weapon, they are over priced losers as their fancy armour makes up a large part of their points value.
(Sir Muir has a power weapon…and the hidden fang would deffinitely get some knd of eqiuvilant effect I think, so those two would have a field day chopping up marines.))

Space Marines are pretty rubbish at war, just like everyone in 40K.
They all stand in a field, dressed in bright coloured uniforms, waving flags and marching at each other and then using their guns as clubs when they get too close.
Is this the future or the 18th century?
These are tactics to use with your musket, not your rocket launcher!
These guys show up to intergalactic war with freaking swords!

Also, I dont buy all this “marines are tougher in the background” crap. I played the game, they were not all that tough. If they are supposed to be tougher, they should rewrite the rules to make em tougher. The company is called GAMES Workshop, not “Oh but actually they are a lot tougher if you read the books” workshop!

But The fact remains- Chapter of space marines vs Harkovast= Harkovast wins.
There would be only a thousand of those power armoured dorks! Lets say it takes 20 Darsai to bring one down (A high estimate, considering their performance on the table top and the short range on their guns.)
That means it would only take 20,000 Darsai to defeat them, less than the Darsai Kingdom can deploy. So not only does a chapter of the “finest warriors in the galaxy” fail to take over Harkovast…they cant even over whelm just the Darsai!
I suppose they could hide in their space ships and bombard from orbit…but frankly any character from any sci fi with a space ship could do that. Hardly proves them to be the big bad ass dudes they claim to be.

Space Marines= Over rated but with fantastic PR.

I am pretty sure the Emperor jsut sits in his Golden Throne not communicating or really doing anything other than creating a psychic impression in the warp.
I've also read some material that implied it is possible the Emperor is dead.
After all, if he was but the machiens around him kept the psychic beacon going…how would you tell the difference?

Anyway, back to something even vaguely related to this topic-

An anti magic EMP? You seem to be talking about this like it is an inevitability. By that logic, couldn't the harkovast people invent an “anti-science” spell that makes all the other sides guns stop working?
I think you need to steer the discussion away from theoretical things that each side might invent and focus on what they actually show up with.

Canuovea- The KITW keeps himself pretty busy. He already destroyed the natiosn of the West and is now moving on to destroying everything else.
His rise to power has been going on for about 100 years (I always prefer a comparatively tight time frame on these things, so the bad guy is not sat on his arse for 2000 years between events!)

Err, unless the Hidden fang and the Darsai weapons (which you said are just better than regular weapons, sharper etc, not like power weapons at all) are better than a lightsaber from Starwars then they got nothing on power weapons. If they are, how the hell did the Darsai lose against the nameless at the beginning of the nameless war?

Rubbish at war, well, I have found it kind of odd, but sometimes armour gets better right along with the weapons so CC isn't, necessarily, so unlikely. And I disagree. Some of them use outdated tactics, like most Imperial Guard commanders (trench warfare, WW1 style, but with more tanks).

As for marine toughness… there is a rule in the Codex entitled “Movie Marines” which simply makes the Space Marines better (and more pricey), it gives a completely different profile for the SMs that makes them like having some of the game's toughest heroes as regular units. Why aren't they that tough in the game normally? Simple, there would be less of them, which means the army looks less impressive and Games Workshop makes a lot less money. And they do like making money for overpriced plastic.

And there is that one story where ten marines almost destroyed an army of Renaissance era style troops. The almost is because a bunch of daemons showed up. It was in the Chaos Codex of course. It was a story though but it makes a point.

The Eldar say that the Emperor is dead. Generally that's good enough for me.

I don't see an anti-magic EMP device working with WW2 tech myself. And this was on topic… we are arguing about futuristic people fighting Harkovastites.

Was the KITW conquering those places in person or just letting his deputies do it? Sauron destroyed Numenor in person, but that happened before the LOTRs begins, just like the KITW took over the west before Harkovast officially begins. So they seem pretty similar to me. Sauron is a character, not a concept, he may represent a concept metaphorically but the KITW may too. Unless being around for a longer time and working at his goal for a longer time makes Sauron a concept. Does that make my Great Grandfather a concept, not a person or character, too? So far there isn't much difference between Sauron and the KITW (I say so far!), both are malevolent beings in the background of the story at the moment. And both are sending fallen kings/heroes/etc against the good guys along with a bunch of evil critters. Oh, and they are both supposedly powerful. The main difference is that the KITW actually (probably) has physical form aside from a giant eyeball and has taken less time in getting to work. Oh, and from the sound of it so far the KITW could squish Sauron like a little grape. But pretty similar besides that. This is, of course, if Cthonic is right about your point. But comparing Sauron to the Chaos Gods is a bit much, they do represent concepts in a literal sense. Sauron is a character (even if he is a spirit) that can simply be defined as “malevolent and evil with a goal to dominate all life” The KITW can so far only be described that way as well except he works faster.

Enough of me ranting about Sauron though (who I still think is kind of a wuss). Morgoth is the way to go, and he makes plenty of appearances in the Silmarillion, so does Sauron too for that matter (usually getting his rear end kicked though).

My point with Suaron is tha twhile in the background he was a guy once, he isn't one at the momment.
He is an ethemeral spirit that never really does anything but everyone talks about a lot.
If he had actualy been dead in Lord of the Rings nad the Orcs nad Ringwraiths just had a religion that said he was still alive and became horribly demoralised when the ring (the symbol of their religion) was destroyed, the story of LOTR would have played out pretty much the same.
That is really the key difference that i watn to stress. The KITW is very much an actual person who physically is somewhere, has a personality, motivations, back story etc.
Obviously I cant say anything about what those traits are, but the key point is that he really is an actual person, not a spirit/abstract concept.

A well made chainsword (frost sowrds that space wolves get) count as power weapons, an orc with a big axe used to reduce marine armour AND big claw on an orc does the same thing.
Despite their claims when they made 3rd edition, everyone and their uncle bob counts as a powerweapon these days! In fact, if you are any good you get a power weapons that also gives another bonus (god bless the power creep in war games!)

So marines cant do what the background says they should? that implies either a poorly written game, a poorly written background or a little of both.
Gimme orks any day.
They used to be a abig unfunny joke but these days they are bad ass!
WAAAAAARRRGGGHHH!

Ah, yes, I see your point about Sauron. I still disagree though. The organizing voice and mind behind the evil events in LOTR was Sauron. He was doing something and in some cases that was more than simply siccing his henchmen against the good guys.

Before LOTR the book started Sauron had grown powerful in Dul Guldar (or somesuch name) in Mirkwood, appropriating the title “The Necromancer” and around the time The Hobbit takes place he gets driven out from there and slowly resettles in Mordor. From there he has his people get going properly.

Now, before all this, the Witchking (Nazgul boss man living in Minas Morgul) had been enough of a problem by himself (destroying Arnor, Gondor's sister kingdom, and screwing Aragorn's lineage over badly, forcing them to become Rangers, he then spent his time harassing Gondor). However it is not until Sauron returns that things really pick up. Again, Sauron is the directing intelligence behind the whole thing, none of the other baddies are quite smart enough. He doesn't need a completely physical form to do this.

And, Sauron does act directly. He corrupts Saruman the White, via the palantir (though Saruman was already ambitious), and strikes a bargain. Saruman wasn't chatting to the Lord of the Nazgul there. Second, Sauron, also by means of the palantir, screws with Denethor's head (you know, they guy who gets set on fire) and in so doing directly weakens Gondor's defenses. He makes the leader of the good guys a insane depressed maniac. And that's what happens when you put your will directly against that of Sauron. Sauron was actively involved here. There is also a section in the book where Gandalf and Sauron duke it out inside Frodo's head, Sauron tries to get him to keep the ring on and Gandalf tries to get him to take it off (though it should be noted that Gandalf is supposedly dead at this point). Oh, and Aragorn shows Sauron the reforged sword through the Palantir, this causes Sauron to freak out and start his attack against Gondor prematurely. This is a key plot point that would not have happened had Sauron been dead and part of some obscure Nazgul religion.

So no, if Sauron was destroyed, and it was just the Nazgul, then things would not have gone the way they did. I say this, but since Tolkien is dead I doubt we could get a proper response on the matter so we may never know for certain.

Sauron may have a stock personality but he still has one. Same for his motives. And he definitely has a back story. As for being physically somewhere, well, Sauron is more of less in Barad-dur. At the point of the LOTR Morgoth is more of a Spirit/abstract concept, but Sauron is still a player in the story. You just don't see him directly all that often.

Technically the marines would be able to do that, but the game mechanics would require a little bit of tweaking in order to balance out the shoddy tech with the ceramite armour and overall awesomeness of the Marines.

And the chainswords I've seen don't ignore armour, some will reduce it, and some give a strength bonus, but they don't ignore the armour. Khornite Chain Axes, for example makes all saves better than 4+ to be 4+ and the Striking Scorpian Chainswords just give them 4 strength rather than 3.

I like the Orks too, can't play as them, but they're neat. The DOW 2 videogame has a new expansion coming out where you get to play as pirate orks, Freebooterz I think, and the captain has a big funny pirate Hat. Oh and in that Game the SMs are incredibly powerful, particularly in single player campaign.

In at least one eddition, space wolves had special chain swords that were better than power weapons!

The thing with all the stuff Sauron does its all very vague and ill defined since we never actually see him do anythign (cause he cant really be seen).
You can still make the story flow basically the same with him being dead.
Saruman is corrupted and joins the scary worshippping Sauron religion, denethor goes mad because he uses the plantir and sees all the evil forces that are coming to destroy his kingdom etc
It still works, because everything Sauron does is implied. It feels a bit like when Religious folk refer to things as acts of god or god working in a mysterious way. But since we cant see or detect god, how do we know it was his will and not just random shit that happened?

Now obvious in LOTR Sauron's evil spirit is real etc, but my point is that the story would work if he wasn't.
The KITW, while mysterious is more like an actual character. There is a guy, in the world, who is the supreme lord of evil. Fighting abstract concepts sucks!

I have a guilty confession though….but I have to come clean….

I own a huge army of Space Marines.
I'm not proud, but there it is.
Can I help it is the models are the easiest and cheapest ot get hold of?
I didn't want to be like everyone else going for the most boring obvious side….but I was a poor student! I was young, I didn't know any better!
I will have to post some pictures sometime of my chapter, The Panther Claws (who where purple and are bad ass inspite of their handicap of being marines and thus crap.)

I wouldn't be surprised. In some cases the +1 strength of the Scorpion chainswords is better than a power weapon. Scorpions butcher guardsmen like cattle, Banshees take their time at it.

Uh, hmm. No, not really. He is a giant eyeball after all… sorta. The movie didn't make that part up. Entirely anyway.

And I don't really think it can flow with Sauron being dead. Who was the Necromancer then? Who did Aragon freak out by showing the reforged shards of Narsil to? That was the sword that chopped Sauron's ring finger off after all and he didn't like seeing it back and being used. You can't really make an excuse with Sauron being dead. Someone had to have seen it, and been afraid of it. That someone is clearly stated in the book as being Sauron. Not Mr. Nazgul, Sauron. The character Sauron. Who then made a horrendous strategic miscalculation out of panic. That is not implied, it is stated.

So I once again state that it makes more sense to have Sauron as an actual character doing things. So they aren't fighting abstract concepts.

Don't feel too down Hark, the new SM codex makes them pretty good…

…

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHheheehhHAhehhe… ahem. Space Marines… I'll take the poor bastards with flak armour and the equivalent of flashlights any day! Actually, I have a large Eldar army that is collecting a good amount of dust. Haven't used it in ages. And at this point I prefer Dark Eldar or Imperial guard anyway, so I stick with the video game. But please do post pictures! I've got an idea…

I don't care what anyone says…Sauron is badass and his opening in Peter Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring amazed me.

I love the design of his humanoid form, it's definitely my favourite character design in all the movies and the fact that he knocks entire armies away with his mace…wow, just wow.

My only complaint was that he was so underused, they seemed to save the best design for a character they'd use the least. For the entire duration of the movie series I had hoped that Sauron would be resurrected in his knight-like form so that he could once again knock entire armies away, I mean don't get me wrong the eye was cool and all…but he relied more so on his minions to do the dirty work, while in his physical form he would show up on the battlefield himself in order to show just how powerful he was and prove his power he did, that to me is better than just some floating eye who looks at you menacingly. (although to be fair, his voice did sound great and the fact that he showed up on screen so many times just to roar at the audience was fairly scary, that and they are pretty much the same character.)

Needless to say, I was really disappointed when Sauron died at the end of the third movie, while everyone else was cheering, I was booing. True story, the fact that his physical form didn't show up anymore (except for a breif cameo appearance in the extended edition) really let me down, I blame the internet for that one since I read a plot synopsis on Aragorn fighting Sauron's physical form and although it would not have been accurate to the books at all…I think it would have been spectacular to see.

I've never read The Silmarillion so I cannot say anything about Morgoth, though I did see his appearance on Wikipedia and he does look pretty cool.

To me, the new Sauron design was leaps and bounds better than that viking-cosplaying-silhouette in the animated Lord of the Rings.

But that's just my two cents.

Eh, Sauron… I still think he's a loser. He is constantly getting beaten by the most unexpected or least powerful beings there are. I mean, a wolfhound beats him up. That's right, a doggie. Sauron gets beaten up by a doggie. And the whole hobbit thing is just embarrassing, really.

I'm pretty sure that Sauron in the Movie was not actually how he was specified in the book, I could be wrong, but it looked like a rip off of Morgoth. Big mace, really tall, yeah… Then again, Sauron would be the type to rip off his old boss, eh?

It was awesome though, maybe not quite as awesome as the Balrog (well, my first impression anyway, then I realized that there is no way that Balrogs from the books were so freaken huge. Aw well, still looked awesome.

Heh, I remember that silhouette. Yeah, the balrog in that movie was pretty bad.

Canuovea
Eh, Sauron… I still think he's a loser. He is constantly getting beaten by the most unexpected or least powerful beings there are. I mean, a wolfhound beats him up. That's right, a doggie. Sauron gets beaten up by a doggie. And the whole hobbit thing is just embarrassing, really.

I'm pretty sure that Sauron in the Movie was not actually how he was specified in the book, I could be wrong, but it looked like a rip off of Morgoth. Big mace, really tall, yeah… Then again, Sauron would be the type to rip off his old boss, eh?

It was awesome though, maybe not quite as awesome as the Balrog (well, my first impression anyway, then I realized that there is no way that Balrogs from the books were so freaken huge. Aw well, still looked awesome.

Heh, I remember that silhouette. Yeah, the balrog in that movie was pretty bad.

Wizards are not known for great hand to hand combat skills. He could have crushed the hobbits if he had fought them, though… But, with no body, that's hard to do.

Sauron was a sorceror, so says the Silmarillian. Wouldn't he dress up similarly to Gandalf? Just saying…

I have an IG army (MAN do you need a lot of those things… I must have put 400 dollars into those buggers and their tanks.) and am working on a necron army. Yeah, I know, Necrons suck now… but I still love them. I will paint them bright pink. They will shoot their rays of love across the galaxy!

And, since I've been away all day, back a couple posts… I thought EMPs were around in WW II? I don't remember.
Anti technology EMP would be a regular one, no? Tech or electrical magic could duplicate it if they saw how one worked, I would guess. Building some sort of anti-magic distuptor or shield would essentially win the whole war, unless something catastrophic happened… and then the Nameless would get it. Nameless with anti-magic weapons. Sounds like fun, no?

Also, how is the emperor dead? Because the Eldar said so? When did humans decide to trust Eldar about ANYTHING? I mean, the Astronomician is the Emperor's consciousness, so it seems unlikely. The fluff also describes him as alive, but not really the same Emperor who sat down on the throne at the beginning. His mind is fractured, taking care of the entire Imperium at once, something he could never do while he was contained in his body. And if the Emperor were dead, who would keep the Chaos gods from just taking all human souls when they die?

Why do you seem to dislike SM so much, Harkovast? Because they are the most overplayed, annoying race in the game, or is it something deeper? Did.. did an SM kill your family? *gasp!* Are you a heretic?!

Cthonic no time for a long reply but I would jsut like to say-
Inf the emperor was dead and thus chaos gods ate everyones souls when they died…how would anyone knwo the difference?
By definition of being dead you cnat ask a soul where it ended up.
Besides…I always got the impression that is what ahppened anyway?
I never heard of any heaven in the warp for good souls to go to!

harkovast
Cthonic no time for a long reply but I would jsut like to say-
Inf the emperor was dead and thus chaos gods ate everyones souls when they died…how would anyone knwo the difference?
By definition of being dead you cnat ask a soul where it ended up.
Besides…I always got the impression that is what ahppened anyway?
I never heard of any heaven in the warp for good souls to go to!

They go to the Emperor. Psykers would know where the souls go, because in this universe they actually can detect souls.

The Chaos gods would be gaining power even faster than they are if it was a soul buffet

Go to the Emperor?
What does that mean?
Where is that?

Cthonic I think you are taking the Imperial cult a bit at face value!

Also, your arguement that the chaos gods would be gaining power “even faster” seems a bit odd.
How do you measure how quickly they are gaining power? The books dont seem to give a measure. Certianly there is no chart to confirm the power to souls ratio.

40K is supposed to be entirely bleak and hopeless.
The idea of a shining light that promises salvation would seem wierdly out of place.
When you die, chaos gods eat your soul.
Yum yum yum.

harkovast
Go to the Emperor?
What does that mean?
Where is that?

Cthonic I think you are taking the Imperial cult a bit at face value!

Also, your arguement that the chaos gods would be gaining power “even faster” seems a bit odd.
How do you measure how quickly they are gaining power? The books dont seem to give a measure. Certianly there is no chart to confirm the power to souls ratio.

40K is supposed to be entirely bleak and hopeless.
The idea of a shining light that promises salvation would seem wierdly out of place.
When you die, chaos gods eat your soul.
Yum yum yum.

I dunno, I've never died. How do you know that the Imperial cult isn't right? I mean, the Emperor himself didn't like them when he was able to tell them to stop personally, because he didn't like being deified.. But, as the strongest warp presence known to mankind, he might as well be a god. Those souls have to go somewhere, why not to the Emperor? As fuel, or in some sort of heavenly realm, it's not really clear.

They have been gaining in power steadily over the last 20,000 years, and the Imperium has been getting weaker. That has been stated many times, it's why the Black crusades keep getting bigger and more powerful. I wish there was an easy to use chart for things like that. It would make being a chaos sorcerer so much easier.

It is bleak and hopeless… for heretics and xenos! The Emperor is the only one out there who can protect souls, and he only protects loyal humans. The Eldar have another way to protect their people's souls, and I don't know what happens with the Tau. I also don't know if orks or tyranids have souls, I would think they don't. Necrons are tied to their necrodermis, and Chaos worshippers are already lost.

Sauron wouldn't have necessarily dress like Gandalf, technically he lost the ability to assume a eye pleasing form when he got owned by Numenor sinking like a rock. Also, Sauron was a Maiar, yes, but not one of the Istari, who came over the sea dressed like old men, so he probably dressed different from Gandalf.

Technically if you are alive your soul is more or less bound to your body in 40k, but it is reflected as a presence in the warp. Psychers have a particularly, uh, “luminous” spirit, which attracts warp creatures like moths to a flame.

Necrons technically have souls, but weak ones, and the Dark Eldar don't like the taste much. Tau also have souls, but they don't really appear strongly in the warp; which is why they don't get psychers. Tyranids actually blanket the warp, the Hive Mind is like a huge soul/consciousness that falls like “a shadow across the warp.”

Orks do have souls. And they are about as tasty as anyone else's.

The Imperial Cult is bullshit. Thing is that the Space Marines themselves believe that their souls go to the Emperor, and they generally disagree with the Imperial Cult in terms of theology (SM don't see it as theology).

The Imperium has been getting weaker, that does not mean that the Chaos Gods have been necessarily getting stronger. Besides there are more players here than meets the eye. It is true that the Astronomican is beginning to flicker intermittently, and that perhaps the Golden Throne is failing…

But it is possible that the Astronomican is not the Emperor's will, consciousness, or whatever. In fact I remember it being a psychic chorus played by millions of psychers, whose souls are slowly depleted and fed to the Emperor when the psychers finally die. It may be directed by the Emperor's will, or simply by the Golden Throne itself. It is entirely possible that the Emperor is essentially dead and that it is the Golden Throne itself that is operating everything.

And 40K isn't necessarily hopeless. Well, that is what the Ecclesiarchy wants you to think anyway. Perfect motivator for those poor footsloggers, eh?

40K is hopeless if you are an Eldar!
You have to get your magic stone taken back to thecraft world to AVOID getting eaten by the forces of evil.
Thats right, being a good little eldar etc has no effect on your after life.
And if your soul is collected, do you go to heaven?
Nope, just get plugged into a giant psychic waiting room in the circuitry of thecraft world. The best you can hope for is to get to drive a dreadnaught around!

And this is not just a very depressing religion, it is presented in 40K as indisputable fact!

A situation so depressing that even killing yourself will only make things worse!

Personally I would have written it so the eldar hold onto the souls of their dead because they need to make up the numbers because the living population is always dwindling.
All that “Slanesh is standing outside eldar heaven with a saucepan rubbing his/her tummy” crap just strikes me as kinda funny and hard to take seriously.

Yeah, not great being an Eldar… until they bring back their God of the Dead… that might make things interesting… Then again, you do live a long time… but that makes it just more likely that you're gonna die violently.

Then again, driving a dreadnaught around ain't too bad…

And all that damn control… blah, the Craftworld Eldar just wouldn't be the type to jump up on stage and do the Time Warp while watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show. The Dark Eldar would go all out… and then probably kill everybody during or after… See, at least the Dark Eldar got a sense of party! “Let's do the time warp again!” Heheheh.

It is kinda funny if you have no sympathy for those poor bastards. Which, you know, most people don't. Why? Well I heard this about the Eldar…

Imagine you see that your neighbour has some termites. Instead of telling him about the termites and helping him get rid of them; you burn down his house because there is the slight chance that the termites might infest your house. That's the Eldar for you.

Not entirely sympathetic, is it?

Oh and the Dark Eldar will kill or Rape or Torture or Eat souls just for fun. Not sympathetic. Nope. By the way, in Logic, “or” isn't exclusive, in fact it means that the statement is true if one of those things happen… or all of them. And not necessarily in that order either…

harkovast
40K is hopeless if you are an Eldar!
You have to get your magic stone taken back to thecraft world to AVOID getting eaten by the forces of evil.
Thats right, being a good little eldar etc has no effect on your after life.
And if your soul is collected, do you go to heaven?
Nope, just get plugged into a giant psychic waiting room in the circuitry of thecraft world. The best you can hope for is to get to drive a dreadnaught around!

And this is not just a very depressing religion, it is presented in 40K as indisputable fact!

A situation so depressing that even killing yourself will only make things worse!

Personally I would have written it so the eldar hold onto the souls of their dead because they need to make up the numbers because the living population is always dwindling.
All that “Slanesh is standing outside eldar heaven with a saucepan rubbing his/her tummy” crap just strikes me as kinda funny and hard to take seriously.

I think that putting the soulstone back in the pool allows for reincarnation… Or you can end up in a wraithguard suit. Depends on what you want, I suppose. They DO need to keep up the population, because their numbers ARE dwindling. Same with the SM, they save geneseed and bodies for reuse because their numbers are nothing like they were pre-heresy, so they need to recycle what they have over and over again.

Slaanes isn't very bright.

Cthonic- Nope, no reincarnation in the Eldar religion. You just sit in the soul matrix thing until you get put in a dreadnaught or the craft world gets destroyed or damaged (as eventually they all will, as the eldar are dieing off).
After that its straight off to slanesh' all you cna eat soul bouffett.

Canouvea the eldar believe that all of the eldar will need to be dead in order to get enough souls to merge together and make the god of the dead. So even their supposed salvation involves their extinction.

Eldar- You cant win, you cant break even and you cant get out of the game.

I was actually under the impression that it was when enough Eldar die, and their souls aren't consumed by Slaanesh… That means the Infinity Circuit in the Craftworld… which means… not all Eldar have to be dead. There just have to be enough Eldar souls accumulated… Then bammo, you got yourselves the Eldar equivalent of the second coming.

And there's also that Eldar Jester God to be worrying about too… the one who seems to give Slaanesh and the Deceiver a run for their money… Unless, of course, he is the Deceiver, in which case you gotta worry about who the Harlequins are worshiping, but I doubt it.

Don't count the Eldar completely down and out yet. Though their approach to existence is itself very fatalistic (Rhana Dandra, or whatever, the final battle with Chaos), what happens remains to be seen. So the Eldar themselves technically have hope, after a fashion, which may be enough for their strange race.

Canuovea the god of the dead requires more nad more souls to be in the soul matrix thingies.
Though the exact amount required is not known, it is speculated that it will take the souls of the entire race in order to morph into the death god.
I guess it is an odd kind of hope. “We will all be dead…but at least we will get to have a nice afterlife…or at least one that isn't quite so terrible.”

What a depressing bunch those Eldar are!

Anyway…….GOLTA! Any thoughts, questions? What ya got?

harkovast
Canuovea the god of the dead requires more nad more souls to be in the soul matrix thingies.
Though the exact amount required is not known, it is speculated that it will take the souls of the entire race in order to morph into the death god.
I guess it is an odd kind of hope. “We will all be dead…but at least we will get to have a nice afterlife…or at least one that isn't quite so terrible.”

What a depressing bunch those Eldar are!

Anyway…….GOLTA! Any thoughts, questions? What ya got?

If they were to fall to chaos, which god do you think they would worship? Not Tzeench, surely, as they seem to be pretty conservative. Probably not Slaanesh, what with their sensibilities and all.. Khorne, maybe? They seem to be a society based on preparation for battle. Wouldn't take much to push them into expanding ‘for their protection’, I would think. Nurgle, tho.. I can't see much connection there. Or the forgotten 5th Chaos god.. Hmm. I can see them worshiping Malal, fighting against other races that fell to Chaos.
Or would they worship other gods? The Deciever perhaps?

Ummm well lets see.
Tzeetch is too weird adn abstract for a direct people like the golta.
Slanesh….these are the most miserable, surly, grumpy people in harkovast! No way!
Nurgle- The are not suffering any big plagues or anything and are a genrally pretty healthy bunch.
Khorne- Golta are not into conquest, they see war as a means to an end (making money, defending their territory)
Malal- any self respecting cultist of any race would refuse to worship such a loser on principle.

So not really any there. THe Golta's main bad traits are xenophobia, racism and isolationism. Not really a chaos god for those problems.

I just added new fan art to the fan art gallery if anyone is interested in seeing that.

harkovast
Ummm well lets see.
Tzeetch is too weird adn abstract for a direct people like the golta.
Slanesh….these are the most miserable, surly, grumpy people in harkovast! No way!
Nurgle- The are not suffering any big plagues or anything and are a genrally pretty healthy bunch.
Khorne- Golta are not into conquest, they see war as a means to an end (making money, defending their territory)
Malal- any self respecting cultist of any race would refuse to worship such a loser on principle.

So not really any there. THe Golta's main bad traits are xenophobia, racism and isolationism. Not really a chaos god for those problems.

I just added new fan art to the fan art gallery if anyone is interested in seeing that.

Wait a minute… Xenophobia, racism, and isolationism? If they were humans they would be prime candidates for the Imperial cult!

And war as a means to an end? Well, if you were corrupted by Khorne, war would become it's own end. I think that would be needed to turn the Golta to Khorne is a bit of corruption in the leaders and clergy, slowly changing how they look at war. It might take a generation or two, but it could happen fairly fast as corruption goes.

Does sound like the Imperial Cult…

Then again I think that the Golta also sound a bit like the Eldar. Relatively advanced weaponry, small country and population, citizen soldiers, see themselves as constantly under threat, incredibly conservative, dislike for the other races on principle, and, yeah, that seems it.

They don't really seem to be the Chaosy type. In fact I at first thought you guys were talking about the Eldar, not the Golta! Pretty close to me.

Other question, has anyone other than the Tolpish, actually attacked the land of the Golta?

And who the hell is Malal?

I have no idea who malal is, that's why I assumed he/she is a loser.

The Golta have fought a few small wars with other races, but nothing on a very large scale.

The Golta penisular is very well defended with forts and garrisons and patrolling rangers and since the Golta are so insular, they don't really provoke invasion from others very much.

The Golta generally see themselves as under a lot more threat they actually are, especially since they tend to think of all other races as one big group that plots against them (using tolpish as a collective term adds to this sense of everyone else against us.)