When you're a child you want to be an adult, which sadly means you want to do adult things. As a boy I wanted to watch South Park because I wanted to be mature. But once I hit puberty, I faced the ultimate irony, if not self-contradiction, with being mature: being edgy.

Be it because I wanted attention, I wanted to step away from my comfort zone, or it was the closest thing to rebellion at the time, being edgy meant being interesting regardless of what rules you broke or what lines you crossed.

But now that I'm an adult, I have to ask myself: when is it REALLY necessary to be “edgy” for the sake of telling the story you're aiming for despite breaking a few risquèggs to make an omelette of an acquired yet undeniably novel taste, and when is uncalled controversy simply uncalled for regardless of how inspired the over-the-topness can be?

Three and a half years ago I asked my friend for advice on a story(who was younger than me yet a sort of gothic Joey Tribbiani by comparison when it came to liveliness) concerning which ending I should've gone with in a comic: the artistic one or the controversial one? Naturally he suggested the controversial one, though I would'nt have minded the artistic one because it made just as much sense, if not more, to the style I was paying blatant homage to at the time.

Another reason I ask this is because as this decade is coming to an end, I'm somewhat ending it on a more mature version of how it began because of two movies: 2011's Hobo with a shotgun, and 2018's Mandy. Having seen both of these films I can say that imo if Hobo with a Shotgun is Terminator then Mandy is Terminator 2: despite ample contrast, when you consider their essence you can't believe that one is just a more mature version of the other. (They're both atmospheric Canadian neo/revisionist/post exploitation movies with Italian roots starring an unconventional actor)

I guess because Mandy was made with more experience and responsibility it was going to be a “more mature grindhouse movie” (if that's even possible) but how do you carefully harness that maturity without coming off as “edgy”?

As I'm working on the comic I'm on I'm sort of haunted with the idea that it might come off as vulgar and edgy rather than subtley intimate and understanding, which is why I can't help but wonder if the honest way of handling maturity is to simply go the safe route rather than trying to harness that atmospher/mood/feel that is tricky to pull off even if you've done it before. Don't get me wrong, even if I don't pull it off, the worst I might do is make some uncomfortable rather than come off as insanely “edgy”. But is it possible to be mature about something even if it might come off as edgy to some when done with enough delicacy and care?

As a general rule, it's almost never necessary to be transgressive in order to tell a story; even when the subject matter is particularly lurid, there are ways to get around it. It's really just up to you to decide whether that's what you want to do, and accept the risks or don't. If you do it, and it doesn't go over well, then it was the wrong decision. If you do it, and people love it, then you're a genius. No science involved; it's art!

What you think is dark and edgy could be someone else's Sunday Morning Matinee.

Controversy is in the eye of the beholder.

Bottom line is do what you want. An artist defining their work as “dark and edgy” is probably being pretentious. People who really do dark and edgy don't think they're doing that. They're just doing what they want, pursuing their own vision and others call them dark and edgy.

@El CID I understand, it's just that many well known directors such as Katsuhiro Otomo, Edgar Wright, and James Gunn have started off making movies that were “not for the faint of heart” before moving on to PG-13. Plus having had some eavesdropping fascist force my hand into quitting a story earlier this year all because they'd rather see a Cannibal Holocaust reference on a guy rather than a gal (like it was in the bloody original) didn't help despite the fact it was the one of two of the only over-the-top scenes in the entire story. Don't get me wrong, my story is to Jane Austen romance to what that hotelroom wrestling scene in Borat is to Charlie Chaplin, I just don't know if I've already treaded through enough landmine infested grounds as it is. XP

@bravo1102 I mean I'm aware that the word “edgy” in itself is not only pretentious but subjective. Deep down all I'm aiming for is to take not only myself but the audience out of their comfort zones. It's just that the very word has become a way of cataloging since adolescence because despite it being archaic unless I'm making something like that “Doc and Mharti” short (which gave way to the show everyone knows now), I do somewhat owe it to not the word but the basic mentality of trying new things and ‘the biggest risk is not taking one’. I'm just trying to shed any ideas that are basically immature nowadays while making sure I'm keeping the ones that can work if adapted well enough.

I may have mis-read your definition of “Edgy,” so maybe my comments are off the mark.
In my opinion, “edgy” is the new cliche, and “genuine, heartfelt human texture” is the new edgy. In pop culture, everybody is trying so hard to outdo each other with empty shock value and special effects that the whole experience just becomes as boring as wallpaper. Or, to quote Pauline Kael's 1977 review of the first Star Wars movie in New Yorker magazine: “Star Wars is like getting a box of Cracker Jack which is all prizes.” “Edgy” has come to mean “lots of meaningless shiny baubles, and no substance.” I prefer substance. I prefer to stick with artistic,human texture that comes from my own experiences in life, even if those musings on the human condition are transposed into a fantasy or science fiction setting.

What I'm saying is: be true to your artistic vision not to what others may call it.

You want to do something, fuck it and drive on. I think Rape Zombie or Human Centipede are tame and lame. Uncomfortable is the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. But that pales next to being there.

Movies and comics can't come close to the real deal. When you apply a pressure bandage to a wound gushing real blood in real time, dark and edgy just can't be contained in a comic or movie.

As an historian I know that real life is far more messy than any fictional plot no matter how edgy someone considers themselves.

My advice is to stop thinking so much and just go with asking “what if?” Or “if this goes on…”

Tbh, I think a work sets the baseline for what is “normal” to the setting, and shock/edge/extreme will be relative to that baseline.

If you watch a rated R movie with dismemberment in every scene, another decapitation won't have an edge to it. But if you are watching a slice-of-life movie and a kid breaks his arm with an audible snap, it'll have a real bite to it. The audience will feel it.

As a creator, you have to use your best judgement as to whether you want it to be a haunted house feel where people are expecting the shock (and consequently not shocked by it, but still a fun ride) or what level to present a work. Too far from the “baseline” can also hurt a work. Readers need to have some level of expectation met. They need to have a feel for how “safe” it will be.

I always question these levels in my writing. Is this too far? Is this just a cheap shock? Necessary? Unnecessary? How much should be shown? On an occasion, I had a few readers call a scene “extra dark,” and it was – for Used Books. I have never been sure if I went too far on that (or other) scenes. I don't believe I did so to be “edgy.” But I don't know. Did it keep to expectations of my work? Did it change them? It's a tricky balance. Too many scenes like that will dull the impact and make it trivial. Even one could change the nature of the setting and story.

@fallopiancrusader Yup, that's pretty much my idea better translated with your words. I like me some substance too, though if I could go back in time I would tell younger me to abstain from Shadman because a better comic artist will come in the form of LilArea. Thanks to a crippling tumblr incident in 2016, I now personally prefer neither. -_-

@bravo1102 Oh yeah, alot of people go to fiction to escape reality while others, like myself, see it as the perfect outlet for allegory. I just know that Japan is entertained by trauma, and South Korea by flat out scarring you for life (just watch Oldboy and Snowpiercer) while countries like the UK or Mexico only use overly realistic scenes (like the beginning of Dunkirk or DiCaprio's acting in The Revenant) to remind us of the worst of reality before earning our…somewhat…better endings. I'll stick with my vision then, even if I can't tell if I'm excited or scared.

I don't know if I'll ever see Saving Private Ryan since people keep calling the first 20 minutes as one of the most intense in cinematic history.

@usedbooks yeah, that was pretty much the sort of bite I had with the controversial ending in my story 3.5 years ago: instead of appearing like a human butterfly (as the homage would've had it), the character just appears naked with giant butterfly wings (extremely detailed and intricately drawn giant butterfly wings, but nevertheless naked with giant butterfly wings XP). That sort of thing is fairly common in anime, but since I don't make anime, I went further than too far to some.

My sort of bite now is less a “you expect one thing but get another” (like Evangelion or Hans from Frozen) and more of a “It's not WHAT he does but HOW he does it to the point it looks like he's doing SOMETHING ELSE” (the only example that comes to mind is Darth Vader's massacre from Rogue One, which came as a shock since most Star Wars goers are used to seeing characters getting cut in half that we never thought how gruesome it would look if they didn't go the full monty)

The entire corpus of my work is allegorical satire. As someone who taught literature I have deconstructed a few of my comics.

And yes, I lost readers on one comic for being too graphic. Another I got a pile of shocked messages over how I wantonly and graphically killed supporting female characters.

And then I discovered some comics that delighted in such accomplishments. So I pulled back only to discover that I had built a readership and established a reputation. And some things are expected.

But there are times where I just write stupid and have fun. Gratuitous exploitation and ridiculous plot lines.

I tried doing something worthwhile and it was successful and well regarded and I hated working on it. One of the characters threatened to get all dark and edgy and I had to pull her back from that abyss.

Have fun and do what you want to do. Strive to become a piece of popular culture or be satisfied to be on the fringe of the fringe.

But the I created a character called Bucket of Warm Spit to symbolize what I think so much out there is really worth. Pretentious? You need a drill sergeant to jump down your throat and teach you a lesson in humility.

JaymonRising JaymonsRising wrote:
@bravo1102 Oh yeah, alot of people go to fiction to escape reality while others, like myself, see it as the perfect outlet for allegory. I just know that Japan is entertained by trauma, and South Korea by flat out scarring you for life (just watch Oldboy and Snowpiercer) while countries like the UK or Mexico only use overly realistic scenes (like the beginning of Dunkirk or DiCaprio's acting in The Revenant) to remind us of the worst of reality before earning our…somewhat…better endings. I'll stick with my vision then, even if I can't tell if I'm excited or scared.

One point that seems to be hovering in the background is that culture and media (like comics) cross-fertilize each other. One thing I am interested in as an artist is my relationship to public pedagogy, which is loosely defined as “how societies are taught ideologies (beyond the classroom)”. I would argue that entertainment media aren't just an expression of the culture in which they are embedded, but that the media also indoctrinate their conceptions of culture into the consumer.

Even if you aren't writing a comic with an overt agenda, it is still articulating a viewpoint about the culture and current events of the world we live in. Most artists probably couldn't give two craps about that kind of theoretical mumbo-jumbo, but I am always very conscious of what kind of symbols and signals I am propagating with my art.

fallopiancrusader wrote:


One point that seems to be hovering in the background is that culture and media (like comics) cross-fertilize each other. One thing I am interested in as an artist is my relationship to public pedagogy, which is loosely defined as “how societies are taught ideologies (beyond the classroom)”. I would argue that entertainment media aren't just an expression of the culture in which they are embedded, but that the media also indoctrinate their conceptions of culture into the consumer.

Even if you aren't writing a comic with an overt agenda, it is still articulating a viewpoint about the culture and current events of the world we live in. Most artists probably couldn't give two craps about that kind of theoretical mumbo-jumbo, but I am always very conscious of what kind of symbols and signals I am propagating with my art.

That was why I didn't pursue art after high school and let whatever talent I may have had atrophy and die. For me therein lies madness.
Anxiety and questioning every thing until you can't even pick up a pencil anymore. I'll stick to deconstructing after I'm done. My conscious mind has too much on its plate already. I'm not getting any younger and my grip on my sanity grows ever more tenuous without going over every piece of symbolism and meaning as I put anything together. ;)

That's my cynical curmudgeonly view anyway. It's not that I don't care, but if I did all my creative energy would vanish in the obsession of a pedagogical enlightenment. ;)