Also, in case you've contributed to HA, please consider adding to this interview page on the HUniverse wiki. We already have interviews from Genejoke, Hero, irrevevant, sux, ironhand, CDMalcolm and myself! :)
From what I get, the ZQ is a megalomaniac. Peligroso, to some degree is right, but he does not have the right to bring judgment like that. He is on a Super Hero Team to help up hold the law. IF he were to break one of those laws for the sake of saving humanity, It must be proven without any doubt that she will be an unstoppable force of mass genocide. The SIMPLE fact that they took her out without using massive resources proves that Peligroso is in the wrong. She is out and not dead. A Defenseless, disable body being attacked will become the victim. Peligroso would be committing murder. Now the Strike that took her out, which I thought Killed her, didn't. So, I guess I was wrong. Now if White tiger would have killed her, the argument would be Defense against a threating attacker. She would be charged with assault on a registered Super hero personal. White, would have to prove that in court.
I think we're actually agreeing on this now, for the most part. And yeah, just read through it. Interesting stuff! I see the part you must of had in mind, about heroes who scrap the justice system and I wasnt meaning to argue that it's okay 100% to use whatever force you need and whatever personal judgement call yo. Hell, it's another example of why heroes (or shit, anyone trying to make ANY difference) need to take situations into account. I'll 100% agree that tracking down thugs off of someone else's account and knocking the shit out of them with your own personal brand of justice typically ideal. hell anyways, I do enjoy that article! It's neat to think about how much comic are like the old Greek myths in alot of ways. Actually it'd be really cool to have some sort of class like that. sorta of like "modern myth".
I agree that you need to consider the outcome and there are definitely times when heroes have to make hard choices. Is life more important than justice? Is security more important than liberty? etc. This is NOT one of those times. The Zombie Queen is subdued and there's no reason to believe she can't be contained - they have more powerful villains behind bars (as a counter-example, Thrawn HAD to be killed - he couldn't be stopped otherwise). I also wanted to add that I'm not arguing against heroes having flaws - they're still human(ish :D). But they should always be at least *striving* to do the right thing. Did you check out the article, BTW? What did you think? And yeah, I think it's cool this has turned into such an interesting discussion. :)
But you CAN'T do the right thing without consideration for the outcome. That's like trying to feel around in the dark and get lucky. and no one is saying that there shouldnt be accountability. if anything, Shrugging off accountability to do "right" puts you back in that realm of being idealistic to a fault and probably insane. I tend to think that someone who just thinks of the "right" thing to do without pragmatic conceptions is more likely to fall into that realm of people who lack constraints and shrug off accountability.
I think the comments box is on the verge of turning into an ethics class, haha!
I actually don't know where I stand on the argument because there's so much to think about. What exactly *is* the "right thing" in this situation? Because it could just as equally be argued that killing her now (especially considering her powers and her claiming she would "tear this world down" prior to this) is the right thing. Is it necessarily good? No. But, as PIT_FACE says, sacrificing a piece of yourself for the greater good is one of the most heroic things around. On the flipside, who are they to measure her life against others? Losing your humanity and moral compass suddenly takes you to a dark corner and who can trust someone like that? I think the whole aspect of showing that the world isn't so black and white is really interesting and really defines a persons character. It's certainly something I love reading and will love writing, too. There's nothing better than getting people to talk about a scene like this and getting a mixture of reactions.
I consider heroism to be about doing the *right* thing, not necessarily the outcome. But let's consider where Peligroso executing the zombie queen would lead. He's not really informed or qualified to make that call, but let's say he's lucky and she doesn't turn out to be just off her meds, an undercover cop, forced into criminal action by someone holding her family to ransom etc. etc. And let's assume the public supports his actions. We've just stepped into a world where anyone who wears spandex and calls themself a hero gets to decide who lives or dies with no accountability. Woo? Would you rather that or that Peligroso uphold standards that could be considered idealistic? There's a reason cops have constraints and accountability on use of lethal force. BTW, the linked article touches on these issues in more detail than I can in a comments box. Plus it's neat. :) http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-ugly-lessons-hiding-in-every-superhero-movie/
Where I agree with you is where you say "Heroes do not kill if there is any other way". Where I DONT agree with you is where you say "they do the right thing even when it's not the pragmatic thing". To me that doesnt make a hero. That makes an idealistic madman. Keeping the Voodoo Queen alive in order to give her a trial would be putting this heroic notion over the intrinsic value of life itself...unless of course she could be rendered powerless, then putting her through the system could work. Maybe even rehabilitation!
but this is a woman who turns whole populations to decay with a flick of her wrist. Yes, executiong her isnt really holding up "the insinsic value of life" but this is where other OTHER qualification of the hero comes in- self sacrifice. You are willing to sacrifice who you are for the greater good. By killing the Voodoo Queen, Peligroso would be losing his identity as a hero (by your definition). But ignoring pragmatic outcomes for the sake of retaining your hero stat
Yup. Being a hero isn't always easy - if it were, everyone would do it. :D (It also involves hard choices, which is why it makes compelling fiction.) I've never been convinced by the whole "If only the hero had just murdered the person rather than respecting their legal rights!" school of thought, though. A hero has already gone over and above by apprehending dangerous criminals. It's not their role to decide who lives and who dies - that's the job of the justice system. And if the justice system later fails, that's not the hero's fault (well, except re: unlawful arrest issues. :/). Though I *do* think that Wayne Enterprises should be given Gotham's prison contract. :D
I think being a hero and doing the "right" thing isnt always as straight forward as it sounds. Say she does come back again and kill. Then some could argue the blood would be on Peli's hands and for what, for the sake of not giving in to his dark side? To preserve himself first and foremost,instead of saving those future victims? But then others could argue that preserving himself as a balanced individual will do good for future endeavors he's needed in, too. But, if a ton of people ARE killed again and he considers himself at fault, I wonder how balanced he can remain then also. Maybe THAT would actually send him over the edge. Not a choice I'd ever want to be stuck with.
I think it's fairly obvious where I stand. :D Heroes should be heroic. Heroes should do the *right* thing even when it's not the pragmatic thing because heroes stand for an ideal. They are people who act as the world should be even when the existing world doesn't validate that. And people who, by their example, nudge the world towards what it could be. Heroes do not kill if there is any other way, because that is how people ideally should act.
I really like Peligroso's look on Panel 3...the guy looks pretty ticked off even with a sword at his throat! Again, I'm eager to see what people think of the argument here and where they stand.
cdmalcolm1 at 5:29AM, Dec. 1, 2014
From what I get, the ZQ is a megalomaniac. Peligroso, to some degree is right, but he does not have the right to bring judgment like that. He is on a Super Hero Team to help up hold the law. IF he were to break one of those laws for the sake of saving humanity, It must be proven without any doubt that she will be an unstoppable force of mass genocide. The SIMPLE fact that they took her out without using massive resources proves that Peligroso is in the wrong. She is out and not dead. A Defenseless, disable body being attacked will become the victim. Peligroso would be committing murder. Now the Strike that took her out, which I thought Killed her, didn't. So, I guess I was wrong. Now if White tiger would have killed her, the argument would be Defense against a threating attacker. She would be charged with assault on a registered Super hero personal. White, would have to prove that in court.
irrevenant at 6:37PM, Nov. 26, 2014
/me ducks PIT_FACE's blade. LoL, you didn't kill the topic chain - we'd just said what there was to be said. (Unless anyone else wants to chip in? :D)
PIT_FACE at 8:47AM, Nov. 26, 2014
The great Pit-Face kills another topic chain, AHAHAHAHAAAAAA.. *slashes around wildly*
PIT_FACE at 9:02AM, Nov. 25, 2014
*ISNT typically ideal
PIT_FACE at 9:01AM, Nov. 25, 2014
I think we're actually agreeing on this now, for the most part. And yeah, just read through it. Interesting stuff! I see the part you must of had in mind, about heroes who scrap the justice system and I wasnt meaning to argue that it's okay 100% to use whatever force you need and whatever personal judgement call yo. Hell, it's another example of why heroes (or shit, anyone trying to make ANY difference) need to take situations into account. I'll 100% agree that tracking down thugs off of someone else's account and knocking the shit out of them with your own personal brand of justice typically ideal. hell anyways, I do enjoy that article! It's neat to think about how much comic are like the old Greek myths in alot of ways. Actually it'd be really cool to have some sort of class like that. sorta of like "modern myth".
irrevenant at 1:33PM, Nov. 24, 2014
I agree that you need to consider the outcome and there are definitely times when heroes have to make hard choices. Is life more important than justice? Is security more important than liberty? etc. This is NOT one of those times. The Zombie Queen is subdued and there's no reason to believe she can't be contained - they have more powerful villains behind bars (as a counter-example, Thrawn HAD to be killed - he couldn't be stopped otherwise). I also wanted to add that I'm not arguing against heroes having flaws - they're still human(ish :D). But they should always be at least *striving* to do the right thing. Did you check out the article, BTW? What did you think? And yeah, I think it's cool this has turned into such an interesting discussion. :)
PIT_FACE at 9:32AM, Nov. 24, 2014
But you CAN'T do the right thing without consideration for the outcome. That's like trying to feel around in the dark and get lucky. and no one is saying that there shouldnt be accountability. if anything, Shrugging off accountability to do "right" puts you back in that realm of being idealistic to a fault and probably insane. I tend to think that someone who just thinks of the "right" thing to do without pragmatic conceptions is more likely to fall into that realm of people who lack constraints and shrug off accountability. I think the comments box is on the verge of turning into an ethics class, haha!
ironhand at 5:58AM, Nov. 24, 2014
I actually don't know where I stand on the argument because there's so much to think about. What exactly *is* the "right thing" in this situation? Because it could just as equally be argued that killing her now (especially considering her powers and her claiming she would "tear this world down" prior to this) is the right thing. Is it necessarily good? No. But, as PIT_FACE says, sacrificing a piece of yourself for the greater good is one of the most heroic things around. On the flipside, who are they to measure her life against others? Losing your humanity and moral compass suddenly takes you to a dark corner and who can trust someone like that? I think the whole aspect of showing that the world isn't so black and white is really interesting and really defines a persons character. It's certainly something I love reading and will love writing, too. There's nothing better than getting people to talk about a scene like this and getting a mixture of reactions.
irrevenant at 3:59AM, Nov. 24, 2014
I consider heroism to be about doing the *right* thing, not necessarily the outcome. But let's consider where Peligroso executing the zombie queen would lead. He's not really informed or qualified to make that call, but let's say he's lucky and she doesn't turn out to be just off her meds, an undercover cop, forced into criminal action by someone holding her family to ransom etc. etc. And let's assume the public supports his actions. We've just stepped into a world where anyone who wears spandex and calls themself a hero gets to decide who lives or dies with no accountability. Woo? Would you rather that or that Peligroso uphold standards that could be considered idealistic? There's a reason cops have constraints and accountability on use of lethal force. BTW, the linked article touches on these issues in more detail than I can in a comments box. Plus it's neat. :) http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-ugly-lessons-hiding-in-every-superhero-movie/
PIT_FACE at 6:44AM, Nov. 23, 2014
status doesnt make you a hero either. it makes you an idealistic obsessive, and possibly dangerous.
PIT_FACE at 6:44AM, Nov. 23, 2014
Where I agree with you is where you say "Heroes do not kill if there is any other way". Where I DONT agree with you is where you say "they do the right thing even when it's not the pragmatic thing". To me that doesnt make a hero. That makes an idealistic madman. Keeping the Voodoo Queen alive in order to give her a trial would be putting this heroic notion over the intrinsic value of life itself...unless of course she could be rendered powerless, then putting her through the system could work. Maybe even rehabilitation! but this is a woman who turns whole populations to decay with a flick of her wrist. Yes, executiong her isnt really holding up "the insinsic value of life" but this is where other OTHER qualification of the hero comes in- self sacrifice. You are willing to sacrifice who you are for the greater good. By killing the Voodoo Queen, Peligroso would be losing his identity as a hero (by your definition). But ignoring pragmatic outcomes for the sake of retaining your hero stat
irrevenant at 9:11PM, Nov. 22, 2014
Yup. Being a hero isn't always easy - if it were, everyone would do it. :D (It also involves hard choices, which is why it makes compelling fiction.) I've never been convinced by the whole "If only the hero had just murdered the person rather than respecting their legal rights!" school of thought, though. A hero has already gone over and above by apprehending dangerous criminals. It's not their role to decide who lives and who dies - that's the job of the justice system. And if the justice system later fails, that's not the hero's fault (well, except re: unlawful arrest issues. :/). Though I *do* think that Wayne Enterprises should be given Gotham's prison contract. :D
PIT_FACE at 11:18AM, Nov. 22, 2014
I think being a hero and doing the "right" thing isnt always as straight forward as it sounds. Say she does come back again and kill. Then some could argue the blood would be on Peli's hands and for what, for the sake of not giving in to his dark side? To preserve himself first and foremost,instead of saving those future victims? But then others could argue that preserving himself as a balanced individual will do good for future endeavors he's needed in, too. But, if a ton of people ARE killed again and he considers himself at fault, I wonder how balanced he can remain then also. Maybe THAT would actually send him over the edge. Not a choice I'd ever want to be stuck with.
irrevenant at 3:17AM, Nov. 22, 2014
I think it's fairly obvious where I stand. :D Heroes should be heroic. Heroes should do the *right* thing even when it's not the pragmatic thing because heroes stand for an ideal. They are people who act as the world should be even when the existing world doesn't validate that. And people who, by their example, nudge the world towards what it could be. Heroes do not kill if there is any other way, because that is how people ideally should act.
man in black at 7:35PM, Nov. 21, 2014
or is it?
ironhand at 5:20AM, Nov. 21, 2014
I really like Peligroso's look on Panel 3...the guy looks pretty ticked off even with a sword at his throat! Again, I'm eager to see what people think of the argument here and where they stand.
irrevenant at 2:17AM, Nov. 21, 2014
Ooh, who's that in the last panel? Kaine has like an 80s hair metal thing going on in panel 4. :D He looks very cool like that. Nice page!
Genejoke at 3:08PM, Nov. 20, 2014
good stuff