General Discussion

Oh great... a Tsunami warning...
I Am The 1337 Master at 6:10AM, March 13, 2011
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I feel like an ass ‘cause I’m the only person who isn't moved by this at all.



last edited on July 14, 2011 12:55PM
Product Placement at 6:33AM, March 13, 2011
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ksteak
It won't go ‘boom’ like Chernobyl did, read up on what some of the actual experts are saying.
Well… Chernobyl itself didn't exactly go ‘boom’ either. What happened was that the technicians were conducting an experiment, where they were using a potential meltdown moment to power the cooling system. It's a bit hard to explain but basically, when a nuclear power plant powers down, it still requires power to keep the cooling system running. The reason is because a nuclear core doesn't have a conventional “off switch” and thus has a potential to overheat.

The powerplant had diesel engines that generated enough power to run the cooling system but required a full minute to power up. Thus the idea of the experiment was to create an automated system, where the steam turbines would feed power directly into the cooling system, as they were still spinning down, after the power failure. This would have provided enough power to bridge the missing minute.

Unfortunately, a series of event caused the core to be very unstable at the time of the experiment, and no experts were around to notice and fix it, due to the fact that the experiment was postponed until the next shift change started. When they finally started, the core heated too fast for the cooling system to keep up which caused the cooling fluid to overboil.

What happened then is that the core went critical and actually started to melt and catch fire. There was an explosion but that was due to a massive steam built up, forcing its way out of the plant. The plant caught fire during the event and radioactive materials from the melting core was carried away in the steam/smoke and blown all over the northern sector of east/west Europe.

The comparison between the two events is that the cooling system of reactor 1 in the Fukushima was damaged during the quake which ended up in it going critical, just like the Chernobyl reactor did.

Here's a before and after picture of core 1.



Similarly, a before and after picture of the Chernobyl plant.



At the moment, it's classified as a class 4 disaster, according to the International Nuclear Event Scale, where 7 is the worst cases scenario. At the moment the Chernobyl incident is the only case that's a level 7 disaster. The only reason why Fukushima didn't go to class 7 is because they're been doing a phenomenally good job minimizing the damage to the core, resulting in a fairly mild meltdown. However that might change cause according to the latest news, reactor 3 of the same plant could potentially go critical as well.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
SarahN at 11:54AM, March 13, 2011
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Yeah, there's the nuclear plants and radiation, and I'm also hearing about fears of a second large earthquake happening (a 7.0 or something) and rumors of over 10,000 people dead.

Jesus….
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:24PM
blindsk at 3:52PM, March 13, 2011
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Product Placement
At the moment, it's classified as a class 4 disaster, according to the International Nuclear Event Scale, where 7 is the worst cases scenario. At the moment the Chernobyl incident is the only case that's a level 7 disaster. The only reason why Fukushima didn't go to class 7 is because they're been doing a phenomenally good job minimizing the damage to the core, resulting in a fairly mild meltdown. However that might change cause according to the latest news, reactor 3 of the same plant could potentially go critical as well.

Thanks in part mainly to the preventative measures taken by the team working at the plant, and the use of the seawater, a potential widespread crisis has been averted. I'm sure what's on everyone's mind is the radioactive materials released into the air and how that will affect the surrounding area. There are many factors as to why what happened, happened, and what actions were taken to resolve this issue, but long story short, the materials released into the atmosphere decayed within seconds and are blown out to sea, never to be seen again. In other words, they've already reached their half-life. So unless someone was standing directly above the facility, no one will be harmed by the reactor going critical. That also means that no measures were needed to evacuate anyone within a 30,000 mile or so vicinity.

So the people most in trouble by this disaster of the Fukushima plants are the operators themselves as well as the company that owns it, but no one else. Well, I suppose you could add the residents suffering from outages wherever these plants powered.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
ozoneocean at 4:19AM, March 14, 2011
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blindsk
Product Placement
At the moment, it's classified as a class 4 disaster, according to the International Nuclear Event Scale, where 7 is the worst cases scenario. At the moment the Chernobyl incident is the only case that's a level 7 disaster. The only reason why Fukushima didn't go to class 7 is because they're been doing a phenomenally good job minimizing the damage to the core, resulting in a fairly mild meltdown. However that might change cause according to the latest news, reactor 3 of the same plant could potentially go critical as well.

Thanks in part mainly to the preventative measures taken by the team working at the plant, and the use of the seawater, a potential widespread crisis has been averted. I'm sure what's on everyone's mind is the radioactive materials released into the air and how that will affect the surrounding area. There are many factors as to why what happened, happened, and what actions were taken to resolve this issue, but long story short, the materials released into the atmosphere decayed within seconds and are blown out to sea, never to be seen again. In other words, they've already reached their half-life. So unless someone was standing directly above the facility, no one will be harmed by the reactor going critical. That also means that no measures were needed to evacuate anyone within a 30,000 mile or so vicinity.

So the people most in trouble by this disaster of the Fukushima plants are the operators themselves as well as the company that owns it, but no one else. Well, I suppose you could add the residents suffering from outages wherever these plants powered.
ummm… partly true.

It seems that a big tradition of nuclear disasters is the cover-up or at least making things sound safer than they are so as not to panic people. There are a lot of lies, evasions and half truths here.
The sea-water thing was a an extremely last ditch super-dooper emergency move, very shoddy stuff.
At the beginning of the disaster I heard that Hilary Clinton offered to fly in a 747 load of coolant material (whatever that is) and was refused by the head of the Japanese nuclear agency who said they had it well under control themselves.
Typical- trying to make it seem as if things weren't as bad. Saving face. Very stupid man,

I've also heard that the crazily named USS Ronald Regan just recently passed through that “harmless cloud” of vented gas, giving crew members over a month's does of radiation in a single exposure.

…So there's quite a bit more to this story than they're pretending.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
ksteak at 8:19AM, March 14, 2011
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Someone
The comparison between the two events is that the cooling system of reactor 1 in the Fukushima was damaged during the quake which ended up in it going critical, just like the Chernobyl reactor did.

They're different in build though. If it melts down it will still be contained, unlike Chernobyl which didn't have any containment.

Japan isn't the uber star of nuclear technology by a long shot, but if the experts that have predicted everything so far are themselves playing down the possibilities of what disaster could occur just to save face of their own profession, I'll be very upset.
Still as far as I understand it from their predictions, a meltdown won't be a major catastrophe.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
Product Placement at 11:43AM, March 14, 2011
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ksteak
They're different in build though. If it melts down it will still be contained, unlike Chernobyl which didn't have any containment.
In a way, the Chernobyl incident was a learning experience for future plants. Back then, nuclear power was considered to be much safer form of energy then it is perceived to be today.

A sad update: There was an explosion at reactor 3 this morning, similar to the reactor 1 explosion and now people are saying that reactor 2 might go the same way. It's possible they'll now upgrade the incident to class 5 or 6 on the INES scale.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
blindsk at 3:27PM, March 14, 2011
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ozoneocean
ummm… partly true.

It seems that a big tradition of nuclear disasters is the cover-up or at least making things sound safer than they are so as not to panic people. There are a lot of lies, evasions and half truths here.
The sea-water thing was a an extremely last ditch super-dooper emergency move, very shoddy stuff.
At the beginning of the disaster I heard that Hilary Clinton offered to fly in a 747 load of coolant material (whatever that is) and was refused by the head of the Japanese nuclear agency who said they had it well under control themselves.
Typical- trying to make it seem as if things weren't as bad. Saving face. Very stupid man,

I've also heard that the crazily named USS Ronald Regan just recently passed through that “harmless cloud” of vented gas, giving crew members over a month's does of radiation in a single exposure.

…So there's quite a bit more to this story than they're pretending.

Well yes, of course they are trying to save their face. That is, the face of the company in charge of the plant. The point I was trying to make was that surrounding citizens have nothing to fear, in fact residents would be able to move back to outlying communities within the vicinity of the plant.

They did take all the necessary precautions to make sure it didn't become a full blown disaster. The people faring the worst by this are the people in charge of the company allowing their reactor to reach a level 4 incident.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Product Placement at 5:19PM, March 14, 2011
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A sad update: There was an explosion at reactor 3 this morning, similar to the reactor 1 explosion and now people are saying that reactor 2 might go the same way.
And there goes reactor 2. The cores are still intact though but may have suffered a partial meltdown.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
ozoneocean at 7:36PM, March 14, 2011
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blindsk
The point I was trying to make was that surrounding citizens have nothing to fear, in fact residents would be able to move back to outlying communities within the vicinity of the plant.
O'rly?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164151.htm

As PP says, things have taken a turn for the worse…
Reactor containment has suffered damage.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
blindsk at 8:51PM, March 14, 2011
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ozoneocean
O'rly?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164151.htm

As PP says, things have taken a turn for the worse…
Reactor containment has suffered damage.

Definitely missing the context of my statement by posting this as a response to my statement.

But anyway, this is recent news, but don't be too hasty jumping to conclusions here. As a precaution, it is best to treat it as a worst case scenario. However, in the previous instance it turned out to be less detrimental than hyped, so let's see what evidence they bring to us first. I know I'll be talking to my team about this first thing tomorrow.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
ozoneocean at 10:29PM, March 14, 2011
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blindsk
]Definitely missing the context of my statement by posting this as a response to my statement.
If I did I'm sorry, but it's even worse than that now.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164595.htm

Dangerous levels to human health

Evacuations within a 20K radius. People with 30K urged to stay inside and close doors and windows.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
ksteak at 10:49PM, March 14, 2011
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They've been evacuating the ones within 20km for a few days now, since Sunday I think. Before the first explosion it was only 10km.

What's new now is that small amounts of radiation have been detected in Tokyo.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
blindsk at 11:10PM, March 14, 2011
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ozoneocean
If I did I'm sorry, but it's even worse than that now.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164595.htm

Dangerous levels to human health

Evacuations within a 20K radius. People with 30K urged to stay inside and close doors and windows.

I just meant that I posted all that before this latest explosion. Great, maybe I just jinxed the whole thing.

Because it certainly is growing worse than I previously thought. They weren't able to contain the built-up pressure so this wouldn't happen.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Lonnehart at 12:15AM, March 15, 2011
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right now, I'm hoping that this is one of those times where it gets much MUCH better after it gets worse. :(
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:39PM
ozoneocean at 3:05AM, March 15, 2011
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ksteak
What's new now is that small amounts of radiation have been detected in Tokyo.
Incorrect. Radiation levels just outside the site are immediately harmful to human health. They're rocketed up.
They're saying it's up to 400 milisieverts an hour, but other sources have said near the site it went up over 8000 at one point. That means containment has been breached.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Product Placement at 3:13AM, March 15, 2011
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Ugh! The fourth one just caught on fire!? Is somebody playing “This little piggy…” with the powerplant?

Also, the fact that not allot of radiation is being detected in the outlying regions is largely due to the fact that all the radioactive material is being blown to the sea. However, I wouldn't be so calm about that, if the radiation ever reach levels where it could start affecting the sea life.

At any case, regardless of how well they manage to contain this situation, it's quite clear that this plant is going to be out of commission for a veeeery long time.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
ozoneocean at 3:55AM, March 15, 2011
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That fire is apparently out now.
This site is best for recent news it seems:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html

Related to this one:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/

Not sure what formal standing they have.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
mlai at 4:54AM, March 15, 2011
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Regarding the renewed interest on Chernobyl…

I hear that the Russians, in typical Russian fashion, put a huge metal dome around the entire plant and called it a day. And now, that metal dome is breaking down. And what has been released from the Chernobyl site has only been a minor percentage of the total radioactivity. Meaning, once that containment is breached, Chernobyl can once again start spewing radioactive matter. In much larger quantities than previously.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
Lonnehart at 4:56AM, March 15, 2011
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mlai
Regarding the renewed interest on Chernobyl…

I hear that the Russians, in typical Russian fashion, put a huge metal dome around the entire plant and called it a day.

whoa… talk about sweeping your troubles under the rug… or in this case a huge metal dome. I hope they're planning on doing something about it… O_O
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:39PM
Product Placement at 6:05AM, March 15, 2011
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Lonnehart
mlai
Regarding the renewed interest on Chernobyl…

I hear that the Russians, in typical Russian fashion, put a huge metal dome around the entire plant and called it a day.
whoa… talk about sweeping your troubles under the rug… or in this case a huge metal dome. I hope they're planning on doing something about it… O_O
Oh, they've been working on that project for years now; I remember hearing about it during my late teens. The original dome was put up in a very speedy rush job, due to the obvious fact that the workers, working on it, had a very limited experation date.

Since the plant is still heavily radiated, they're actually going to build the new dome away from the plant and then slide it over it, once it's ready, like this picture explains:


They're still building the new dome and it's not expected to finish until sometime after 2013.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
ozoneocean at 11:18AM, March 15, 2011
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I'm hearing that the French Nuclear Safety Authority officials are saying it's clearly a level 6 incident now, but the Japanese ones are trying to say it's still only a 4.

National pride at stake or is it that they just don't want to panic the markets?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Product Placement at 12:32PM, March 15, 2011
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ozoneocean
I'm hearing that the French Nuclear Safety Authority officials are saying it's clearly a level 6 incident now, but the Japanese ones are trying to say it's still only a 4.
Was just reading the same thing. I was popping up to report on it but I guess you beat me to it.
ozoneocean
National pride at stake or is it that they just don't want to panic the markets?
Well, I think it's already too late for that. The Tokyo stock exchange dropped over 10 percent today.

Ironically, it's having positive effect on global gas prices. Now that Japan is busy recovering from its ordeals and the infrastructure is effectively crippled, Japans demands on resources will temporarily lower, meaning lowered prices for the rest of us.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
Product Placement at 1:36PM, March 15, 2011
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Dodger
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In other news, apparently there are a group of people in the states calling the tsunami a karmic payback for the Pearl Harbor…
I… just don't know how to respond to that.
I'm… pretty sure that's a 4chan joke.
I really wish it was just a bunch of trolls (and a part of them probably are) but during the past couple of days I've been discovering more and more evidence that allot of these people are being serious. For example, here's a bunch of facebook comments that a friend of mine found.

On a more interesting note, I found this video that a guy took in a park in Japan:



I remember reading stories about a massive earthquake that happened over 100 years ago in my country, where the quakes lasted so long that people became motion sick. I never had a good reason to believe them until now.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
Lonnehart at 3:57PM, March 15, 2011
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Wow… they're being serious? And I don't know about this… I thought Japan paid for trying to invade the U.S. with their defeat at the end of WWII, especially with the nuclear bombs they got dropped on them.

Oh, well… I see it like this. Bad things always happen to people. Good, bad, in between… bad things always happen. I guess people feel more comfortable believing that there's a purpose (that pertains to Humanity) behind everything that happens. I guess I just see the Universe as a very chaotic place where anything and everything happens and all we can do is adapt to it…

And thanks to that video I'm starting to doubt the ground I'm standing on. Last time I saw something like that was back in 1993 when we got rocked by an 8.1 earthquake. The ground outside my window looked like it was rolling… O_O
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:39PM
skoolmunkee at 3:57PM, March 15, 2011
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At any case, regardless of how well they manage to contain this situation, it's quite clear that this plant is going to be out of commission for a veeeery long time.

The damaged reactors were written off as soon as they started pumping seawater into them, the salt will corrode reactor parts. They are probably just trying to keep everything cool long enough to get the processes in progress shut down, I don't think you can just turn off the system once it's started (obviously, or they'd have done it). At least half the reactors were already offline for testing, so it's better than it could have been…

ozoneocean
I'm hearing that the French Nuclear Safety Authority officials are saying it's clearly a level 6 incident now, but the Japanese ones are trying to say it's still only a 4.

National pride at stake or is it that they just don't want to panic the markets?

I have read that most experts are unwilling to pin it down on a number at all, since it is fluctuating so rapidly and nothing too irreversible has happened yet (or something like that). But they also say things like, “within the next 24 hours we will know just how bad it can get” which is more than a little scary.

Poor Japan though. What seemed like an unfortunate natural disaster has turned out to be another devastating natural disaster, now compounded with an imminent nuclear disaster.
  IT'S OLD BATMAN
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:44PM
ayesinback at 4:15PM, March 15, 2011
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Product Placement
In other news, apparently there are a group of people in the states calling the tsunami a karmic payback for the Pearl Harbor…
and
I really wish it was just a bunch of trolls (and a part of them probably are) but during the past couple of days I've been discovering more and more evidence that allot of these people are being serious.

It's hard to dismiss these idiots with the ol: “yup, the US has more than its share of assholes” but, maybe we should just let them be. Echoing Lonnehart, If they really believe in karmic payback, they must be shitting their pants waiting for the payback from what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

the video was interesting, especially the “still moving” label. Did it mention when the video was shot?
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
blindsk at 6:46PM, March 15, 2011
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ozoneocean
I'm hearing that the French Nuclear Safety Authority officials are saying it's clearly a level 6 incident now, but the Japanese ones are trying to say it's still only a 4.

It was confirmed that the fire at Unit 4 (which was brought up more recently) did not occur at the spent fuel pool. This is where the residual heat from the radioactive decay of the fission products go to cool down. This is where radioactivity would normally be exposed.

Still, the cause of the fire is still unknown.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
ozoneocean at 10:02PM, March 15, 2011
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skoolmunkee
I have read that most experts are unwilling to pin it down on a number at all, since it is fluctuating so rapidly and nothing too irreversible has happened yet (or something like that). But they also say things like, “within the next 24 hours we will know just how bad it can get” which is more than a little scary.
It seems it's still getting worse. Safe to say it probably is a 6 by now.

As for the amount of disasters, it's all part of the same thing really. That's the way I see it- not separate, just all earthquake damage.

blindsk
It was confirmed that the fire at Unit 4 (which was brought up more recently) did not occur at the spent fuel pool. This is where the residual heat from the radioactive decay of the fission products go to cool down. This is where radioactivity would normally be exposed.
Reactor 3 has suffered some major issue too now, with radiation levels spiking to over 1000 microsieverts per hour at one point and a large cloud of something billowing up out of it, with reports that all workers had been evacuated.

—————–

Interesting when you watch footage of the tsunami, much like the 2004 episode you see that the problem isn't any idea of a fabled “wave”, it's that the sea level actually suddenly rises in the vicinity and reaches out to flood low lying areas, so the footage and damage is exactly the same as that of any wide-scale disastrous flood.
So the old name of “tidal wave” is still pretty appropriate after-all since the sea comes in literally like a very high tide.
wow O_o
And I always thought the “tidal” part of the name was redundant. That name was surprisingly well chosen.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
mlai at 3:30AM, March 16, 2011
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I personally consider Japan's karma for WW2 atrocities already bought and paid for with having 2 nukes dropped onto their cities. So while I feel no guilt or remorse for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think the quake, tsunami and meltdowns are as tragic as if it happened to any other peaceful 1st-world nation.

Also my best friend currently lives in Tokyo. So hopefully the reactors get under control.

It seems as if the tsunami did more damage than the massive quake? That's a credit to Japanese architecture ethics, I have to say. If that quake had hit China I'm sure the death toll would be 10 million or something, even without a tsunami.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM

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