kyupol
CONSPIRACY THEORIST!!!

I'll never be able to tell if you're either a very elborate troll, or, as Fenn put it, batshit insane.

Cthulhu

kyupol
CONSPIRACY THEORIST!!!

I'll never be able to tell if you're either a very elborate troll, or, as Fenn put it, batshit insane.

Occam's Razor would tend to suggest the latter.

There are other possibilities besides the idea that you have a mental disorder. It can also be a form of epilepsy (neurons misfiring) or other physical causes. I heard a story on NPR about a woman who had a form of epilepsy that caused her to hear marching band tunes ALL THE TIME. I believe they were able to treat her and now it only happens intermittently.

Also, if you want to see the type of things the brain can do to someone, rent “A Beautiful Mind” and you'll see how far delusions can go in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

Kyupol is wrong. That's all there is to that. There are rational reasons for everything in this world, though we don't know what all of them are yet. People who ascribe paranormal are really just afraid to say that we haven't figured them out yet.

Hearing voices have many causes, and jumping to a paranormal conclusion is easy … but there have been some huge advancements in the scientific study of this affliction that have better, more rational explanations. I highly recommend the works of V.S. Ramachandran



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl2LwnaUA-k&feature=related

No paranormal theory has ever been proven in the history of the world, which although not an ironclad argument (can't prove a negative and all that) it certainly carries the preponderance of evidence that paranormal is just another word for “wild imagination.”

Kyupol, your advice in this case is harmful and unhelpful to people with real problems. I do wish you would exercise more caution before making wild speculations. I do appreciate that you advised him to search for a rational explanation first, but that's where your advice should have stopped.

Croi dhubh
Unlike the statement of being in denial, I am not mentally unhealthy nor do I have any kind of mental instability.

Congratulations, you just proved that you're in denial. ;) Though of course that can be a circular argument. ;) If you say you're sane but have the symptoms of insanity… that means you have mental health probelms and need help from a health care professional, not a psychic.

If I have pneumonia am I going to go to a shaman or to a medical doctor? Time we realized that mental health is just as much a concern as physical health and is often caused by readily recognizable physical problems not a supernatural connection and New Age mumbo-jumbo. (tongue in cheek there I recognize that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in that philosphy, though please seek some medical attention to rule out physical problems, with my multiple concussion syndrome I experience many of the same phenomena)

People believe weird things that have no basis in logic and can even be readily disproven. Of course that is no reason not to base a world view on that belief even for mentally healthy people. (tongue in cheek, nod and a wink) ;)

Was the band music a form of tinnitus? I know it can take on the form of music because of that pattern making hard-wiring in our heads.

Hearing voices is known as “Auditory Hallucination”

Now Wiki is not the best source for things, but it's convenient and it's generally not toooo bad. this is what it says on the subject within the larger entry on Hallucinations in general:

Wikipedia on Auditory Hallucinations
Auditory hallucinations, particularly of one or more talking voices, are particularly associated with psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia, and hold special significance in diagnosing these conditions, although many people not suffering from diagnosable mental illness may sometimes hear voices as well. The Hearing Voices Movement is a support and advocacy group for people who hallucinate voices, but do not otherwise show signs of mental illness or impairment. Other types of auditory hallucinations include musical hallucinations, where people will hear music playing in their mind, usually songs they are familiar with. One reason this can be caused is by lesions on the brain stem, occurring most often from strokes, but also tumors, encephalitis, or abscesses. Other reasons include hearing loss and epileptic activity. Recent reports have also mentioned that it is also possible to get musical hallucinations from listening to music for long periods of time

Wiki also has an article on a group for people that have this sort of problem but feel they don't have a problem and just want help to cope with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_Voices_Movement

kyupol
I'm not f**cking with you.

As this reality isnt everything there is. I'm convinced of that and its not a theory to me but a FACT. Yes. There are other dimensions. Our eyes only see a certain frequency and you cannot really see the other frequencies unless you awaken your other senses. All humans have em (what you call psychic abilities). What your five senses grasp is not all there is.

Get help.

cartoonprofessor
The point I was trying to make is that if these ‘voices’ are not causing harm, let them be… the risk is very high of getting so-called ‘professional’ help and being mis-diagnosed and put on dangerous drugs that ALWAYS have side-effects, or diagnosed and unnecessarily put on the same drugs because your ‘doctor’ wants a new tv set (yes, the drug companies do ‘reward’ specialists who prescribe their brand)

The risks of him being mentally ill and in need of help are also very high.

By the way, hearing voices is not the same as thinking.

bravo1102

Croi dhubh
Unlike the statement of being in denial, I am not mentally unhealthy nor do I have any kind of mental instability.

Congratulations, you just proved that you're in denial. ;) Though of course that can be a circular argument. ;) If you say you're sane but have the symptoms of insanity… that means you have mental health probelms and need help from a health care professional, not a psychic.

Congratulations, you just proved you're closed minded. Considering I don't go visiting psychics, as I have met only one, perhaps two, real psychics, that's not a valid argument.

If I have pneumonia am I going to go to a shaman or to a medical doctor? Time we realized that mental health is just as much a concern as physical health and is often caused by readily recognizable physical problems not a supernatural connection and New Age mumbo-jumbo.

Except for all the times “current medical” treatments don't work and someone is suggested to find alternative methods by recently trained individuals.

Most of the time mental health professionals are so quick to jump around screaming, “EVERYONE needs therapy!” Well, that's only true for that person, not for everyone. Not all people need therapy. I rarely cry, even in the face of huge devastation. Some people have called me cold and an asshole. I've had everyone from a psychologist to a psychiatrist tell me I have a very healthy mental state and attitude.

In addition, I've had more than one doctor and optometrist tell me my eyes are wired “oddly”. My visit to the last optometrist last Wednesday resulted in the same thing. She told me, “I don't think I've ever seen eyes like the back of yours… Has anyone ever told you that?” My mother, brother, father, and grandmother have all been told the same thing. My mother and my brother also experience the same things I do, and recently I discovered my father does as well. He just like denying anything was experienced. When four people at the same time experience the same event, you can't call it mentally unbalanced. But, I'm sure you will and give some half ass explanation.


I've watched some “thing” pick up objects, such as toys on a shelf, and toss them a few feet, only to have someone else near by ask if the toy just flew off the shelf by itself. Of course the toy didn't do it by itself, some thing made it do that, only I saw a “some thing” and the person didn't see any “thing”.

People believe weird things that have no basis in logic and can even be readily disproven. Of course that is no reason not to base a world view on that belief even for mentally healthy people.

You say this because you do not understand what wasn't taught to you in general schooling. Eight out of ten times something labeled as paranormal can be explained, but those two times blow your mind because you must label it paranormal.

Of course, I'm assuming you understand the actual definition of paranormal, which is being above the normal. Just because something is paranormal doesn't mean it does not have a scientific explanation. No, paranormal just means this is something which doesn't occur in a manner we consider normal at the time.

Your “mentally unhealthy” and closed minded attitude does not explain the responding of disembodied voices, responding apparitions, and physical touching with nothing, which as yet we don't consider, physical presence of a being.

I'm guessing at some time you had dire need of psychoanalytical help. I'm glad it worked for you or someone you know, but just because someone you know needed it, doesn't mean the world does because something doesn't fit your idea of how the world does or needs to operate.

Keep plugging your ears, closing your eyes, and shouting, “GET THERAPY!” It does wonders to help your cause.

He should get therapy.

The idea is that he goes to see a therapist, and then with the therapists aid decides the best course of action. If said action involves not returning for more therapy, then hooray.

The idea is that: hearing odd voices = not normal. We know we can it un-normal because shockingly enough, human brains are not supposed to do things like that.

I honestly don't understand why so many people distrust doctors and therapists. Where the hell does the idea that they're all trying to murder in your sleep and then loot your bank account come from? Most of them do get into those professions because, get this, THEY ACTUALLY POSSESS A DESIRE TO HELP PEOPLE. I realise that sounds crazy. Maybe I should see a therapist.

Have you ever noticed how it's always the close minded people whining that others are close minded?

Hmm…except I'm not being closed minded. I've never suggested people not see mental help professionals. My mother received quite a bit of help thanks to anti-depression medication prescribed to her. I've also not suggested he not seek the aid of such practices.

The thing is, though, “shockingly enough”, human brains are very odd things to doctors and most don't know what the brain is really supposed to do. Those who study the brain simply know what a “common” brain does or what a brain “commonly” does. Stating otherwise is like saying Michael Phelps' body is not supposed to have set the world record because normal bodies don't do that.

Though I'm sure someone is going to say he achieved it through training…well, good for that argument, except now you're saying the “muscle” that is the brain cannot be trained or exercised to develop anything more than “normal”. So, no amount of reading, studying, or lessons will help a person to have a better memory or the sort.

Some people are just wired differently than others. Sometimes this means a mental illness, sometimes this means an ability others do not have, sometimes it means a really high IQ.

this will work well in court. ;)

Someone
I've watched some “thing” pick up objects, such as toys on a shelf, and toss them a few feet, only to have someone else near by ask if the toy just flew off the shelf by itself. Of course the toy didn't do it by itself, some thing made it do that, only I saw a “some thing” and the person didn't see any “thing”.

“i wasn't shooting at the suspect. i saw a glowing figure with a plasma gun about to disintegrate me! he's in this room this very moment. see he just threw that lawyer's pen. of course the pen didn't do it by itself, some thing made it do that.”

for me it's all about evidence. prove it or make it seem credible or i wont believe it.

subcultured
this will work well in court. ;)

Someone
I've watched some “thing” pick up objects, such as toys on a shelf, and toss them a few feet, only to have someone else near by ask if the toy just flew off the shelf by itself. Of course the toy didn't do it by itself, some thing made it do that, only I saw a “some thing” and the person didn't see any “thing”.

“i wasn't shooting at the suspect. i saw a glowing figure with a plasma gun about to disintegrate me! he's in this room this very moment. see he just threw that lawyer's pen. of course the pen didn't do it by itself, some thing made it do that.”

for me it's all about evidence. prove it or make it seem credible or i wont believe it.

That sounds like a study on Schizophrenia I heard about on a radio science program. They were studying the effects of memory and time perception. They were able to determine that sometimes people with Schizophrenia suffer a disconnect between cause and effect that was related to the way humans perceive time: they do something, but they don't actually realise that they did it, they can't connect the action and the fact that they performed it, so they construct a scenario that makes it plausible; ie. something else alien or magical was responsible.

-The way that related to time perception is that the way the brain recognises time passing is amazingly complex and very easy to go wrong. We don't really perceive events in “real time” all in one go, what happens is that our brains reconstruct events to happen in the right order after receiving all the different diverse sensory input (a simple version of that is how our eyes only see upside-down but our brains turn the picture around the right way). It's very easy for that to go wrong.

Something similar could happen with the voices, like you said earlier Sub: because of the condition, they don't realise the thoughts or memories are their own and so ascribe some other source for them.

That's a rather worrying trend…

Croi Dhubh
The thing is, though, “shockingly enough”, human brains are very odd things to doctors and most don't know what the brain is really supposed to do. Those who study the brain simply know what a “common” brain does or what a brain “commonly” does. Stating otherwise is like saying Michael Phelps' body is not supposed to have set the world record because normal bodies don't do that.

You are confusing ‘normal’ with ‘not broken’. I mean, if my arm was bending the wrong way, does that mean that it's merely working in a different way, or that I should see a doctor because it's about to fall off?

See, a persons body getting healthier and stronger with exercise is normal. Because bodies work that way. Brains however, are not supposed to talk to you. They are not meant to make you see howling phantoms grow out of your wall and try to molest you either, that's why I take those pills now. Brains are muscles, ok? They perform certain tasks, and attempt to prevent the body from doing bad things such as walking off cliffs or shitting themselves. Therefore, when a brain stops doing this, there must be something wrong with it.

It's all very well to go against the mainstream and common ideology in terms of art, I fully support that. Just don't apply it to sanity.

If you accept a paranormal reason for these things - voices, things moving that no one else sees, etc - then what?

Should he listen to the voices because he has no choice? Is seeking medical help for a paranormal condition something that makes sense?

Listen, I know we all have deeply held beliefs that our perceptions of the world are correct. But Croi Dhubh's example, to me, shows that his family has a genetic disposition that that informs their perceptions. They share some very similar physical traits that are unusual from the normal. The result could very well be a mental process that “takes a wrong turn” and makes the wrong connections and conclusions.

That seems to me to be more likely than the idea that invisible people are throwing things around for apparently no reason. If you want to prove that otherwise, get a video camera, follow these invisible people around and show their effects. Because even if most us can't percieve these people, there's no reason the PHYSICAL movement of real objects can't be shown.

…but I bet you'll find that they're “camera shy.” Which only leads to more questions, right?

Except there are times when those things aren't camera shy. Good evidence is difficult to come by because we're not sure why some things happen or under what conditions. Like I said, though, eight out of ten times there's undisputed reasons as to why something happens. It's the two times you have ruled out current scientific acceptance and explanations which are evidence and interesting.

I think you all assume I go around and hear voices everywhere I go, or I see things all day long. Assuming makes you and I look like an asshole, but mostly you. Things fall off the shelves and it's a shake in the foundation or a breeze. Do I see a “something” then? No. I see an object drop to the floor. I hear someone calling me or talking. Do I automatically attribute it to paranormal? No, I listen for a while and usually find out it's a broadcast or someone down the street.

I'm not walking down the street having conversations with myself. I'm not the only one in the world (nor is my family) to experience these phenomena. As the saying goes, “When you remove all the speculation and theory, what remains, no matter how strange, is the truth.”

It's taken fifty years to prove some of Einsteins theories, and some of them still cannot be proven. Using some of the models presented in this thread, he was mentally unbalanced for even thinking of them.

Before anyone wants to try and point some bullshit thing out here, my last psychological exam was in February of this year. I'm required due to my profession and any time I'm involved in any kind of “traumatic event”, per department policy. I scored a 136 IQ when I took the MENSA exam (I was curious). I'm also not uneducated, I have a degree in Criminology and remained on the Dean's List for two years straight.

—————-
I could go on a lot about the “camera shy” thing and why things don't always show up on camera/video, but that should be more for a paranormal discussion thread. Also, it's a lot of theory, much like what a ghost actually is.

Someone
I'm also not uneducated

heh, double negative.

when i see an object fall to the floor i think about one haunting force. gravity. ^_^

gravity is still a relatively unknown force. it acts in weird ways. why can gravity attract massive objects like the moon and not crush us at the same time?

anyways things can be rationalized scientifically, just because we don't have the tools yet to analyze certain things doesn't mean they are ghosts. just think about how viruses and bacterial infections were placed under “evil spirits” 200 years ago because no one was able to see them with their naked eye.

yes. I will get help.

Only a qualified psychiatrist can help me.

You're absolutely right!!! A psychiatrist has the authority over how I'm suppose to think. A psychiatrist is the one who can control my destiny.

And I should just shut up and chug down all the chemicals to make my brain normal (aside from being on a constant diet of FOX NEWS which is the MOST CREDIBLE news source in the whole wide world).

Yes. I definitely agree. lol!

kyupol
(aside from being on a constant diet of FauX NEWS which is the MOST CREDIBLE news source in the whole wide world).

hurf hurf hurf i fix'd.

also, believe there are some people who actually do hear see things that others can't. and that sometimes physciatric help will not be the best choice. (sometimes, sometimes, sometimes)

Walrus
Yeah, I keep hearing voices in my head, It's like two people are holding on a conversation in my head or they're talkning directly to me.

It's called “thinking”.

a good psychiatrist can only guide you, the person has to make the journey. medications help the patient to calm down, decrease the stimulation, and hallucinations to make them ready to take the journey.

you have to think that psychiatry is a relatively young practice, just like how early surgery was labeled as barbaric in its infantile state. only 50 years ago they lock people up in institutions because they couldn't control their emotions and hallucinations. They had perform everything from draining blood out of the head to excessive shock therapy.

Just because a person isn't bothered by their hallucinations and can adjust doesn't mean that across the board another person isn't contemplating suicide because of voices.

please don't make it a crusade saying that “it just makes you creative if you hallucinate, so enjoy the voices”. let people have a choice, and have someone who actually has some experience on anatomy and disease process. anyone here a brain surgeon or a a titled psychiatrist? you know going to college for many years in a certain field with actual research isn't bullshit you know.

I'm not saying anyone who experiences unexplained events is stupid, gullible or even crazy. I'm saying that it is infinitely more likely that there's a rational explanation for everything, and it's your interpretation of thing around you that is making you think you're seeing something paranormal.

Look at it like this…all of us have had the experience of seeing a shadow or a shape in the dark and think it's moving or a person only to find it's a coat on a bedpost or something. That's because our brains take shapes and try to “fill in” the gaps to interpret them into something we recognize.

That's why people see the devil face in the smoke from the Trade Towers. It's why some folks see Jesus in a water stain or Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich. These are not necessarily stupid, gullible or crazy people … but they are people more likely to accept paranormal explanations before being more rational about it.

Now with the folks who hear voices or see invisible people, it could be that your brain is filling in gaps at a level beyond normal. This can cause one to perceive things that aren't actually there.

Is that insanity? I don't know, I'm not a professional analyst. In my very unprofessonal opinion, I think sanity is more of a sliding scale, and that none of us are completely without perception problems of one sort or another.

But if you're afflicted with any of these conditions, I think it's very important to assume that there's a rational reason your brain is seeing or hearing things that aren't there (as opposed to believing that the objects or sounds are real, and the rest of the population is just “not attuned” to what you perceive.)

subcultured
you have to think that psychiatry is a relatively young practice, just like how early surgery was labeled as barbaric in its infantile state. only 50 years ago they lock people up in institutions because they couldn't control their emotions and hallucinations. They had perform everything from draining blood out of the head to excessive shock therapy.

I think this would be something excessively important to point out. Modern Psychology, Psychiatry and Sociology have only been around a very short time in the grand scheme of things. It was only in the last five or six years that people started realizing that 90% of children display a majority number of the six most common symptoms of ADD and ADHD but aren't actually truly affected with either of those conditions, they're just children is all. In fact, with all social-behavioral disorders people will display some of the symptoms. They're called social-behavioral disorders because they affect and interact with the normal behaviors of humans. To actually be diagnosed with such a disorder, you have to display an acceptable percentage of the symptoms. Just because a person displays behavior of withdrawal, aggression, and anger or sadness doesn't mean that they are manic-depressive or anti-social, it can just mean that they are experiencing something as a result of an influencing factor in their life at that time. In order to make sure that you should be diagnosed as having a disorder, you need to know the symptoms and have an outside observer to examine and see what symptoms you exhibit. That's what a psych visit does.

We've gone from poking holes in people's brains to let out demonic spirits to watching their daily interactions with others and their environment to discover what self-destructive or unknown behaviors they might have. It's more to the point of making them aware of their behavior and allowing them to change actions which are potentially self-harming than trying to make people “normal”. Psychology isn't about trying to get a person to operate by an accepted normal behavior and neither is Sociology. When they refer to the word normal, they're just referring to the behavior most often undertaken by the greatest number of people, not a standard of behavioral measure.

Someone
Congratulations, you just proved you're closed minded. Considering I don't go visiting psychics, as I have met only one, perhaps two, real psychics, that's not a valid argument.

Not even close. Because later I said:

me
(tongue in cheek there I recognize that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in that philosphy, though please seek some medical attention to rule out physical problems, with my multiple concussion syndrome I experience many of the same phenomena)

I also noted that the denial thing was a circular argument. To paraphrase from Catch-22

You can't be grounded for saying you're crazy, because you have to be crazy to fly. By saying that you're crazy you are expressing concern for your sanity which proves you're sane, so you have to fly.

That's some catch, that Catch-22
The best there is.

The same argument is often used with denial about mental illness.

I am glad you sought medical attention for your eyes. I have a friend who has a similar condition. It got so bad (shadows, auras etc.) he couldn't concentrate on simple activities so he had to be put on medication to reduce the phenomena or at least allow him to ignore it. He's grateful that he can concentrate on his writing again as he writes for indy comics and various websites and recently been published again.

If you can live with your condition go for it. I'd kind of like it if you went to a university that studies this kind of phenomena so it can be studied as it could assist the study of poltergeists if you see unseen hands move things that do move. That is a connection of provable physical with psychic phenomena unlike the flim-flam of psychics and New Age philosophy. (see James Randi, Martin Gardner and Joe Nickell among others.)

You see though I often pooh-pooh the paranormal, but my tongue is in my cheek and I believe it is worthy of scientific study not just blind denial.

My therapist and my psychiatrist both allow for my experiences with the paranormal without labeling me as suffering from delusions because of it. My biologically depression and anxiety are real and treated and any voices I hear is my creativity. I call her my muse, though I wish she looked like Selma Hayek as opposed to just being a sub-conscious voice.

I love watching people argue about gods and the supernatural. Both sides always make themselves look like jackasses.

To people advocating the paranormal: Shut up. The more you keep talking about it, the angrier other people will get, and the more frustrated you'll get. The supernatural is just like religion in that it can't be proved or disproved, and people don't like it when you try to force a religion on them. Unfortunately, even when you're simply discussing religion, there are some people who will see it as you being preachy.

To the people opposing the paranormal: Your posts are goldmines of irony. You talk about how everything has a solution and act like you're the reasonably ones even though you aren't listening to a word your opponent is saying. Also, I have spotted a few holes in your arguement. Here's one that's been bugging me:

Ronson
No paranormal theory has ever been proven in the history of the world, which although not an ironclad argument (can't prove a negative and all that) it certainly carries the preponderance of evidence that paranormal is just another word for “wild imagination.”

Although this makes perfect sense, I feel compelled to point out that if a paranormal theory were ever proven, it would probably stop being considered “paranormal”. I imagine a fair few of scientifically accepted facts were once considered paranormal.

Case in point: Long ago it was widely believed that evil spirits caused diseases. Superstition to us, completely sensible to the people back them. Then somebody one day said: “hey, what if diseases are actually caused by tiny little invisible creatures?” Naturally, this would be considered ridiculous by society, and people who believed such things would be labeled as crazy and superstitious.

LIZARD_B1TE
Case in point: Long ago it was widely believed that evil spirits caused diseases. Superstition to us, completely sensible to the people back them. Then somebody one day said: “hey, what if diseases are actually caused by tiny little invisible creatures?” Naturally, this would be considered ridiculous by society, and people who believed such things would be labeled as crazy and superstitious.

there is an enormous difference between the scientifically provable causes of diseases and “evil spirits”. that people before the age of science believed irrational things is understandable. that some still prefer to think in irrational terms is also understandable, but unhelpful. Believing The paranormal theory ends the study of it and Therefore works completely opposite a scientific theory. where one seeks a “simple” solution (evil spirits), the other is just The first step to finding the truth.

I didn't read anything since I posted last, nor will I. Here's just another thing to add to what I was saying.

When I made my initial statement, bam, my statement is “evidence” that I'm mentally unbalanced because I deny that I am. Isn't that what we call “Damned if you do, damed if you don't!”? It's a fucking trial by ordeal with these people. I'm in denial for saying I don't have a mental disability, but by saying I have a mental disability, I deny what I see and am unbalanced, which is not the case either way.

There's a difference between what I experience and a hallucination. So, of course I explain how I've had everyone from “psychics” (and I use the term VERY loosely) and regular people have told me they say a something when I was witnessing an event. I further explained how if you don't see and hear the things I do, I'm not surprised if someone would call me a liar or unbalanced.

As I said, I've had optometrists tell me my eyes are “different”. My last exam, which was in July 2008, resulted in the same thing. My eye doctor said, “I don't think I've seen eyes like the back of yours.” My mother, father, brother, and other family members have all witnessed these somethings in the past at the same time. Now, let me not forget to mention people all over the world experience similar things all the time.

What did this result in? I was told my family probably has a “genetic disposition for getting crossed signals due to a problem with our optical sensory perception.” Does that make anyone else a little pissed and sick to their stomachs? So many people talk about how they believe in evolution and change with humans, but the moment something might be part of that change it's hated on, discredited, and even made to seem less than human.

I don't go around talking to myself, seeing “ghosties” floating around the world all the time. Usually when I hear something, I listen for a while and find the source. Eight times out of ten something can be easily explained, and I find the reason behind it. It's those two times that will blow your mind and you must label it paranormal, as we don't currently have the science to explain it.

I have experienced hallucinations induced from a concussion and from lack of sleep before. Because I see and hear these things, I know the difference rather well. When I stayed up for 75 hours straight I would often see shadowy figures moving about, just out of dead center vision, or crawling about the floor quickly. When I had a bad concussion I would hear music, ringing, and voices. When I'm engulfed in electromagnetic fields I think something is around me, chatter, and see strange shapes moving. Guess what? I know what causes these and what they were, so I'd never label them paranormal.

Let me help you understand how I understand the difference. I'll be using video games because they're an easy source of screen shots and comparisons. Now, imagine if you will, when people turn on their video game consoles, they always only see this:



The previous picture is considered normal and common. This is what everyone expects to happen when you turn on the video game console.

Now, imagine when you turn on your video game console, you often get this:



When you tell people about it, because they only see the first one image, they tell you what you're seeing isn't what you're saying, and it's a problem with you. What they claim you are seeing is this:




They have never actually seen anything to this effect, so they are going off of what they believe the science says. The previous picture is a serious problem with the video game console, and your TV, which means you should get help immediately. However, you know you aren't seeing the previous picture, because when you had a problem with your video game console or your TV, you saw this:




Because you know the difference, you know when someone has switched your video game console out.

I know this is all kind of a lame example, but it's the best I could come up with showing a comparison. Another way to compare it, without images, is saying when you look out your window, there is a rose bush. The roses on the rose bush are red. Every so often you catch a glimpse of a yellow and red mixed one. You are told you are seeing things, because it's a red rose bush, and the light is reflecting off of the yellow rose bush across the street when the wind blows. You know what a yellow rose bush and a red rose bush looks like, so you know when you see a mixed rose of yellow and red, but no other people have never seen it.

Just because someone can see or hear things you cannot, does not make them crazy or mentally unbalanced. There are people out there who are wired differently than normal, but that only means they have a skill/ability most do not. Using some of the models presented to me, Einstein should be considered crazy for thinking of the scientific theories he did or Michael Phelps shouldn't be a real person for setting the world record he did, because the body isn't supposed to do the things these two people did.

When I walk into a building and tell the person I'm with I don't like a certain area, they often ask my why. An example would be a bordered up building. I told the person I was with I didn't like the rear of the building and when I looked in the front window, I got the “bulk” of the feeling over in a specific area. The person of course asked me where exactly and why. I told the person, “It's right before the kitchen. There used to be tables there or something, I think, and I get this faded image of a person over it. Like they had hung themselves.” I was asked what the person looked like, so I told them. I ws then asked how long I lived in the town and I told them I had only been there a month. Not too amazingly I was told an old bartender had hung himself over the pool tables in that area and looked as I described. The place had been closed three years before I arrived and I knew nothing about it, as I had only even passed by the town once when I moved into the state two years ago.

The brain is still a mysterious thing to doctors. If you don't understand something, don't chastise it right away. It's because of people like those who called me unbalanced we have things like the Witch Trials and the like, not the other way around.

Croi Dhubh
I didn't read anything since I posted last, nor will I. Here's just another thing to add to what I was saying.

I'll return the favor by not reading your long post. Since it's obvious you just want to tell us stuff and not actually have a discussion, I'll pass.

Someone
I didn't read anything since I posted last, nor will I. Here's just another thing to add to what I was saying.

i also did not read your post.
thanks for playing.

i mean, why bother posting at all?

Someone
I didn't read anything since I posted last, nor will I. Here's just another thing to add to what I was saying.

I actually did bother to read your post and you were repeating yourself. There are more things than are dreamed of in our philosophies and an open mind is necessary to achieve wisdom. I can understand your anger and frustration. If I came off as close-minded I apologize and I had hoped that my second post had clarified my position.

Knowledge is worthless without wisdom. I am neither knowledgeable nor very wise, but I try.

Someone
I love watching people argue about gods and the supernatural. Both sides always make themselves look like jackasses.

And anyone who starts a debate by calling another a jackass is an even bigger ass. ;) Do you read Skeptical Inquirer? That “paranormal” definition comment was in a recent article.

As far as claims of the paranormal: prove it. But if it happens and you can't explain it, it may just mean we haven't found the explanation yet. It doesn't mean that the supernatural is responsible.

I know enough to know that I can't know everything and in fact that I don't know much. Which I am certain I have just conclusively proven.

I liked this thread better when nobody was posting in it.