It's not really something that affects webcomics but considering we're comic adjascent I thought this bit of news is important to post here.

Not sure if that means trouble ahead for brick and mortar comic book shops and people seeking to get published, but uh, discuss?

Here's the article.

I don't think that will change anything now but in the future yes.
I haven't ever bought the comics they distribute in my life I think… so it's hard to comment, but I think it's an overall sign of industry change?

In Italy, there has been a decades long fall in sales of comics (comics in 2010 sold nowhere near what they sold in 1980), plus a mini-boom in recent years aftyer comics. In this mini boom, more expensive “graphic novels”, often sold at the bookshop instead than at the comic shop, fared better than the rest.
It seems to me that the reason of the decades-long fall is that there are many more competing entertainment options, like (mostly) videogames but now also streaming series, and that therefore for smallish creators who don't own the rights on Batman this sort of “graphic novel” logic is the only option (or publishing on the web).

Also, in recent years I've been in various italian comicons (we have many, Lucca comics is the second/third biggest in the world) trying to sell the papewr edition of my concluded comic “The True Face”.
I sold virtually zero copies, and I realized that people who go at comicons (at least here in Italy) are not interested in “comics”, rather they are interested in a few IPs they are fans of (say One Piece, or Star Wars etc.) and expect the comicon to be about these charachters/stories, so nobody is interested in self published comics but everyone is interested in cosplay, or in people who draw commission illustrations of charachters from famous IPs.
In my case, the problem is not that much that people look at my comic and then don't buy it, but rather that people don't even look at our table because it is not a recognizable IP.
So this tendency towards multimedia IPs is also something that is making things harder for small time creators IMHO, although maybe I just realized this now and it always happened.

I was much more entrenched in the printed comics market in the 90s than I am now, but here is a highly subjective account of how I watched things going down from the sidelines:

Diamond was pretty much universally hated by everyone I knew in the printed comics industry. They had a monopoly on comics distribution, and they used that monopoly to behave like jerks to everyone.

Then Marvel was bought by Disney, and DC was bought by Warner Brothers. The execs of those giant corporations were suddenly confronted with Diamond's bullshit antics and said "who the hell are these pipsqueaks?" So Marvel and DC created their own distribution companies and abandoned Diamond.

With the Big Two gone, all the smaller publishers left Diamond as well. And now, with nothing left to distribute, Diamond is bankrupt. Good riddance!

Comics will continue to get distributed by other means, but the reality is that bricks and mortar shops are continuing to close everywhere.

By the way, at Angouleme in '94 I hung out with some of the people who worked at Diamond. They were all really nice guys. But the corporation itself was horrible.

marcorossi wrote:
In Italy, there has been a decades long fall in sales of comics (comics in 2010 sold nowhere near what they sold in 1980), plus a mini-boom in recent years aftyer comics. In this mini boom, more expensive “graphic novels”, often sold at the bookshop instead than at the comic shop, fared better than the rest.
It seems to me that the reason of the decades-long fall is that there are many more competing entertainment options, like (mostly) videogames but now also streaming series, and that therefore for smallish creators who don't own the rights on Batman this sort of “graphic novel” logic is the only option (or publishing on the web).

Also, in recent years I've been in various italian comicons (we have many, Lucca comics is the second/third biggest in the world) trying to sell the papewr edition of my concluded comic “The True Face”.
I sold virtually zero copies, and I realized that people who go at comicons (at least here in Italy) are not interested in “comics”, rather they are interested in a few IPs they are fans of (say One Piece, or Star Wars etc.) and expect the comicon to be about these charachters/stories, so nobody is interested in self published comics but everyone is interested in cosplay, or in people who draw commission illustrations of charachters from famous IPs.
In my case, the problem is not that much that people look at my comic and then don't buy it, but rather that people don't even look at our table because it is not a recognizable IP.
So this tendency towards multimedia IPs is also something that is making things harder for small time creators IMHO, although maybe I just realized this now and it always happened.

Can you have some type of banner, that obviously says you're a small creator? Since I wonder if whats happening is people think you /could/ be a big one, and they just somehow missed it, and will continue not worrying about it.
I dont know, I feel like theres some psychological thing that could be done to get strangers to start to take an interest, but I am just guessing.

ksteak wrote:
Can you have some type of banner, that obviously says you're a small creator? Since I wonder if whats happening is people think you /could/ be a big one, and they just somehow missed it, and will continue not worrying about it.
I dont know, I feel like theres some psychological thing that could be done to get strangers to start to take an interest, but I am just guessing.

I usually go with a group of friends, and we generally get a table and we have space to put out one or two banners. More professional publisher pay more and have bigger stalls.

However, in all the comicons, small and big, that I've seen in these years in Italy I see the same problem, that there are very few publishers, very few self bublished groups, and really a lot of cosplayers, people who sell gadgets, and a lot of food stalls (who are the actual ones making money I suppose).
This might be something relative to Italy, but: basically comicons became “fashionable” in the last 10-15 years, so there are now many, even in not very big cities. However the customers of these comicons are often families or curious people, not really comic fans, and when there are comic fans they are more intersted in this or that franchise, not so much in “comics” in general. So even if their are called “fiere del fumetto” they are more like pop culture fairs. It even happened that I went to a pair of fairs where we were the only ones selling self published comics, or in one case the only ones selling comics at all (there were literally 0 publishers).
But again, this might be something specific to Italy, as a perverse effect of the mainstreaming of comic fairs.

But again, this might be something specific to Italy, as a perverse effect of the mainstreaming of comic fairs.

i dont go to them but I have seen comic makers on youtube talk about them, and they usually have a little footage to go with it. its a lot of fanart, fan crafts, and unofficial posters from what I can tell.
it is interesting. how the casual person takes no interest in anything called a ‘comic’, but mention manga and they start listening it seems.
I feel like it warrants more discussion, but maybe theres nothing that can be done about it. I know its not exactly a new topic.

ksteak wrote:

how the casual person takes no interest in anything called a ‘comic’, but mention manga and they start listening it seems.

IMHO it's not even this, it's that people are interested only in what is already famous, be it Japanese, American or Italian, not in the, so to speak, “art of comics” in itself.

People who come to sites like DD or CF are interested in the “art of comics” in itself, but they are a self selected minority.

Many, many people who are into manga primarily do not care for anything that was made in the style of manga unless it was created by someone of Japanese origin or nationality. It's the most infuriatingly silly thing. You could be the most talented person with great art and story, but so many won't even give it a chance, simply because it's not real manga by their standards. The only exception I've heard of was the author of No Game, No Life light novel series, but even he's Brasilian-Japanese. There are probably other examples as well, but not too many, at least for the western hardcore otaku.

Now, other than this, I have to agree with marcorossi. Generally that's how it works. I know a lot of people (for many years, as friends in some ways) who wouldn't care to read 3 pages of my comics. If it'd have a hundred reviews somewhere or get adapted to Netflix or even just made exactly the same way by some artist with 4000 likes / doddle on facebook, I guarantee you they'd give a shit.

Also… the casual people have probably heard of or read at least one graphic novel at one point. Or short comic story. Or something. Most people (including me) who aren't familiar with webcomics imagine comics to be either Garfield-like strips or superhero stuff with contless issues and resurrections and so many different series to follow if they want to understand a SINGLE F-N PLOTLINE that they feel like it's just not worth it. A manga is straightforward. A graphic novel is straightforward. And 99% of everything published here is straightforward as well, compared to how people might see traditional comic books. If I want them to invest in the kind of stuff we do here, I don't recommend them “comics”. Maybe Watchmen. But the misconceptions that comics are necessarily 32-pages and 216 issues-long commitments have to be deconstructed before they could get hooked.

That's been my experience with cons too.
My first con experience was San Diego Comic Con in 2010 when I was invited to the Wowio Yacht party.
I was really disappointed by how MANY independent artists there were doing lame versions of superhero IPs, like Superman, Batman, WonderWoman, Wolverine etc.

I went to the artist alley to see what's what and it was mostly that. -_-
Very lame. The few people who only did their own stuff really interested me and warmed my heart.

———–
I've been to a few more cons since as a cosplayer and my perspective has changed. I look and that superhero stuff and it helps me to evaluate their skill and style because common IPs are a good objective sample, I also know they have to do that in order to make money.

Often when I see people who only have their own stuff I feel intimidated because I know they really want me to look at their stuff, and I'm just not interested in their of private creations unless it matches my preferences…

So given that I think the best approach is to have both things. Put out your Wonderwoman stuff in order to real people in with something common and known, give them a look at YOUR style through it, and hopefully make some sales. And if they really like that they might give you own work a look in.

I am curious where the disconnect is.
Are craft/folk art shows still a thing? Those aren't all bootleg copies of spidermans, they're usually somewhat original designs.
Is it like going to the melbourne show and only picking show bags of things familiar?
Is it because a lot of us are bad salespeople in regard to our own stuff?

While I have peoples in the thread, one more tangent. How do you feel about using the term ‘webtoon’ to describe your work?

ksteak wrote:
How do you feel about using the term ‘webtoon’ to describe your work?

I'd sooner have sex with Donald Trump

Lol. “Webtoon” reminds me of Apocalypse Cartoons. Like Father Tucker or Rats on Cocaine. Which to be honest are very Duck-like stuff from the more unhinged end, but still… animated and not comic-like, except for the art-style.

The only reason my works are webcomics and not just regular ones is that printing them costs money and it's hard enough to lure in readers for free.

ive seen their logo on a couple books in kmart aus, of all places. one was clearance so it isnt listed for order on the kmart site anymore. just thought it was interesting. like dr mcninja was released as a volume once, and i don't think it ever advertised itself as a webcomic on the book.

Ozoneocean wrote:

ksteak wrote:
How do you feel about using the term ‘webtoon’ to describe your work?

I'd sooner have sex with Donald Trump

I can't see webtoon as a description for anything I've done because of their graphic and gratuitous subjects and themes.

And I can't even get family members who read webcomics to look at anything I've done. I have a few old friends who wrote for independent comics and other fan media who pretty much do their best to ignore me whenever I mention my webcomics.

As for shows, I will go to my plastic model shows because that's been my scene for decades, not comic conventions. But it would be good for people watching. Nothing is more enlightening than watching someone talk about something they truly love.

I wouldn't call my comics “webtoons” because (1) most people don't know what a webtoon is and (2) those who do would expect a completely different style.

I do sometimes call my comics “webcomics” when speaking with others.

I went to New York Comic Con a few times. It's is the second-largest comic con in the USA. NY comic con is about super hero comics, super hero fan art, super hero video games and super hero cosplay. Since the super hero genre doesn't interest me, I stopped going after a while because there was nothing for me to do there.