Shine on you crazy diamond!

I agree with StaceyMontgomery (see? I told you guys I'd remember names, eventually!). Unless it is your contention that somehow, some way, Platinum Studios in General and Drunk Duck in particular is “holding people down”, that would be absurd in the extreme. In order for a true “glass ceiling” to exist, there would have to exist an atmosphere of active oppression against “unfavorable” comics. That just is not so here. Or anywhere on the net, really. Unless the “ranking” system is arbitrary, based on the owner's preferences.

*sigh* I give up. I refuse to give in to more flame-baits from you, TnT. You win, even though you blew my entire post out of context, you win. Obviously defending one's integrity and the people you care about is out of the question here, and you're just here to make me look worse than I already made myself look. I am ashamed enough as it is. I rarely stand up for myself and now I see why. I'm the laughing stock of the DD forums. God I'm such an idiot! I knew there was a reason I never felt welcome in here.

-ozone edit- Amy, we all love you, post more.
Please no one join in and turn this into a support Amy/against Amy thread. I just deleted posts by StaceyMontgomery and maciapaladin. They say they both love and support Amy as well, which is great guys, but keep it to PQs ok?

Amy, you're extremely welcome here at the forums, you should know that ;)
You don't post nearly enough though, we love to read your contributions.

Please people, no more with this Stuff against Amy, defending Amy, making the whole thread a defence or attack on Charby! That's called a flame war OK? That's what you doofuses are turning this into. I've deleted TNTs STUPID posts that clearly went against my advice NOT to post such things.

Anyone else that dose this will have their warning level raised.
For 3 reasons:
1. Don't attack other users.
2. DON'T DO IT AFTER A WARNED YOU NOT TO.
3. We don't tolerate flame wars.

Well, upon reviewing the thread, I've seen no convincing argument that the so-called “glass ceiling” actually exists. For there to be one, Platinum and Drunk Duck would have to actively pursue a policy of only promoting certain comics and not Drunk Duck as a whole. Unless someone has some compellingevidence to prove that, I recommend that part of the discussion be tabled. As for the “popularity” aspect, well, people like what they like. Until that changes, or until someone (hopefully me. ;P) comes up with something better, those numbers are carved in granite. Would everyone agree that's a fair statement?

Lets not call it a “glass ceiling” then, lets call it “favoritism”. A rose by any other name is still as sweet. The website has and always will play favorites.

Fair enough. What I gathered from the original post that started this thread, though, is that there is an implied hegemony of sorts here. The top comics stay the top comics forever by some kind of conspiracy on the part of Drunk Duck users. My contention is that I find it dubious to say that there is a concerted effort or even “favoritism” if you will, that is actively blocking anyone else from creeping into the top 35 comics or so. Keeping in mind that we are on the internet, I find it highly improbable that some 30,000 or so users rally every day and say: “I'm going to visit so-and-so's page whether they update or not just to keep such-and-such's comic off the top 10”. Especially given the high percentage of folks with accounts themselves have comics to promote.

maciapaladin
Keeping in mind that we are on the internet, I find it highly improbable that some 30,000 or so users rally every day and say: “I'm going to visit so-and-so's page whether they update or not just to keep such-and-such's comic off the top 10”. Especially given the high percentage of folks with accounts themselves have comics to promote.

What? You didn't get the memo? Aw man… I hope you're the only one or I'll have to send out all 105,000 copies again. That takes ages! :(

Heh. All comics cycle through the top. Only a few actually stay in their positions.
The thing is, the hit numbers that people quote here are good for DD comics, but major webcomics get a LOT more than that! Many times! The reason why Charby is number 1 is because it's basically a major webcomic, It's quite a big league work really (a minor major) ^^. Pinky TA has been number 2 most popular comic on DD for a week or more now (that will change tomorrow), but it's never been there before, that proves the lists DO indeed move! But even at number 2 spot it'd have to double what it is to even get near Charby.

There's no favouritism in that case, none. The top comic is top because it's become a star: It powers itself through nuclear reactions caused by its own gravity. That's a good analogy. :)
Some other comics here have approached that stage, but it eludes them…

You could possibly use the word “favouritism” in an abstract sense towards the Platinum comics that Drunk Duck endorses through advertising as well as the Gods of Arrkeaan. But there are good logical reasons why those comics are endorsed: They're put out and sponsored by the company that owns DD, it makes semse that they should be endorsed. And GOA was a founding webcomic here, the creators personal friends of Volte, it's been a prime DD comic for many years, so it's justified.

“Favouritism” also comes into play with who individual creators choose to endorse etc… So it does exist, but it's not wrong, it's just how users interact.

I can vouch for movement in the top 10. I've been on and off that list more times than…. well, I can't think of a suitable innuendo. But a lot. ;)

For example, I fell off about a month and a half ago (ish) due to a hiatus. It's taken me until this week to claw my way back up there… I got as far as #7 in strips, but am currently #9. It's not static enough to make me feel safe there, lemme tell you that much. ;) It's hard work to stay up there if you're in the lower numbers, and even if you're higher up you're not guaranteed to keep your spot.

TnTComic
've been making comics for 2 years, and i'm on comic forums from vgcats to something awful, pvp to fanboys, and let me just say the following:

I warned you :gem:

ozoneocean
What? You didn't get the memo? Aw man… I hope you're the only one or I'll have to send out all 105,000 copies again. That takes ages! :(

Dammit man, I was trying to avoid blowing “our” cover. Now I'm going to have to start pointing at “them” and making vague statments about “this and that” to keep “people” from paying attention.

*spooky hand wave*

These are not the comics you are looking for…

Again with the ‘Unfairness’ stuff. Can we get past this. There is Intentional Unfairness (Prejudice/Favoritism) and there is Situational Unfairness. Being at the bottom of a Planetary Gravity Well is a form of ‘Situational Unfairness’ from a space travel point of view. It requires an ‘unfair’ ammount of energy to climb out of the gravity well–whereupon, travel becomes fast, smooth and simple. DD's ‘unfairness’ is situational. As a Business–it has to conform to a business model that allows it to exist and profit. Directing attention to it's top performing Comics is necessary. It ameliorates this by having a nice Comic Spotlight. But the peak energy to get into the top rankings still exists…more later

Whatever happened to the annual “Drunk Duck Anthology” book that offered a selection of the comics on the site? Now with our corporate sponsership, we should be able to do that seasonally (four times a year) and flood the market with drunk duck stuff. I think EVERYBODY needs their time in the sun, from Chronic Sonic to penis to Tales From Tyrone, different strokes for different folks.

I miss the DD anthology as well (I was hopeing to enter one day). I think bringing that back could be a great way to get names out there that arnt regularly (or irregularly) in the top lists.
I still believe the GlassCeiling is a device created by the minds of people who want to think there's something in their way so they have something to overcome. Sometimes people need a block in order to convince themselves to keep going, that they'll be acomplishing something even more special than the simple act of creating.

Again, another cool idea, Marine. I think the thing that really made me think about this issue was when DD's default Browse page went from posting the absolute latest comic to post–regardless of ranking–to showing only the top rated books. I used to love posting a page and clicking on Browse to see my comic standing right there at the top of the line. Sure, it didn't last there for long, but darn if it didn't feel pretty good to see it there and dream a little. By having the Browser set to default to a page showing only the top DD comics–the ‘glass ceiling’ got a little harder to punch through. Make that a lot harder. Few people will click down more than a couple of pages. At least the way the Browser used to be set, productivity and posting effort was rewarded. Just my thought.

Somewhere on a data cd (along with older penis stuff) is a screen shot of penis as the #1 comic, right beside gods of the arr Kword. It only was up there because it updated before Elija & Azzu that particular day. It used to be in the top thirty, penis was a daily feature on the front page. Now I feel special for being in the top 50-100 range, with hardly any front page exposure.

Although penis is currently the #2 horror comic!

Neilak20
I miss the DD anthology as well (I was hopeing to enter one day). I think bringing that back could be a great way to get names out there that arnt regularly (or irregularly) in the top lists.
I still believe the GlassCeiling is a device created by the minds of people who want to think there's something in their way so they have something to overcome. Sometimes people need a block in order to convince themselves to keep going, that they'll be acomplishing something even more special than the simple act of creating.

I suffer from paranoia and i think that the Glass Ceiling on DD is a freaking hallucination.

DD is a community driven site, if the community prefers “ComicX” over “ComicB” then X will rise and B will fall, same goes for visitors.

There is preference in DD, but i's not from part of the administration, it comes from the people who read the comics, they are the ones who decide who stays in the top 10 and who doesn't, if the artist made something to earn the heart f the community and create a loyal fanbase, then that person will rise to the top, if that person is doing something to keep them, then that person and his\her comic will stay.

And on the subject of PS plugging their stuff on DD, i have taken advertising and marketing classes at the university, and i can safely say that it is a perfectly valid strategy (as long s they don't break the beautiful thing we have here).

“I beg of you M. Ducker. Tear down this ceiling!”

TitanOne
How can there be a “glass ceiling” on something that (a) has no real financial rewards to speak of, and (b) is totally user-content driven? This is the perfect democracy on DD–everything is based on the interests of the readers and nobody is getting paid a salary, so it's all labor of love and pursuit of excellence on a singularly personal level.

I think this is the truest statement I've read in this whole thread… in the end it boils down to your own personal attitude and skill level. As creators we are virtually faceless and so there is nothing to discriminate between us… you can't tell if someone's a woman, man, black, white, gay, straight, rich, poor, whatever, on the net - we all start on an even keel. This idea of a glass ceiling, from what I understand it meaning that some people cannot reach the top spots because of something they can't help such as their gender… is silly. We're all just people behind keyboards doing what we love.

Some people will be more successful than others… that's the way things are. I'm relatively popular here - I'm often in the top ten and I can honestly say it's quite a warming feeling to log into DD and see my comic in the top five sometimes… But I'm well aware that there are people who get much muuuch more pageviews than me~! I'm aware that they have more skill than me and more connections than me and update more regularly than I do… Goddam I'm jelous of them! XD But I try to put my energy into bettering myself so I can get up there with them rather than complain and get depressed about it. And I'm sure those people who I consider to be “at the top” have people THEY look up to who THEY consider is better than them in some way… like I said, in the end we're just people at computers. People don't just magically appear at the top of these rating lists… it takes years and years of practise to become a good artist or a good storyteller. Often they have been working at their comics for prolonged periods of time and have vast archives… they only advantage they have over people rated lower than them is a dogged determination to keep their comic going. Even sub-par artwork and storylines can get to the top if the author is determined enough… I could name a certain famous published webcomic that I personally see no merit in but I won't… maybe I have a twinge of jelousy there but at the same time I think, “If they can do it so can I!”.

People who are at the top deserve to be there! Why can't they get some extra publicity considering how much work they put in to give you awesome FREE comics to read? They don't get paid for putting their work on the net… if anything readers should be grateful creators have been so generous and have decided to share their work with them~ ^^; The creators could be spending their spare time getting a social life or something (haha, I should do that myself sometime ‘_’ ) and keep all their stories and artwork to themselves.

Stating “situational unfairness” is just silly. EVERYONE starts off at the bottom. Charby, Craving Control, HBN, Gods of A, VG Cats, Megatokyo, Penny Arcade, whatever webcomic you can name… they were ALL at the bottom once getting 20 pageviews a day, probably feeling shitty and that it wasn't worth continuing… everyone has moments where they want to give up… but they carried on and worked damn hard to get where they are today and they were duly rewarded for their “productivety and posting effort”… and good for them! They demand respect not malice.

Yeah, I've had a few people accuse me of being in the top 5 because i'm signed with Platinum or something– that's not so. We did that by putting out a M-F comic and pimping all over the place and keeping the readership coming back with our Hero-Gram announcements, books, etc.

Anyways, my advice to anyone here, and that I take myself, is that you should probably be focusing on your own comics and getting better, rather than flaming on the internet. Been there, done that! The minute i stopped worrying about that stuff and put my nose to the grindstone and worried about story and characters, my audience grew and my work got better.

I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.

DragonessAthena
I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.

Me too. I was so excited to share my story with people beyond just my parents and roommates. :) So glad I can do that and that I can read other people's work too.

DragonessAthena
I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.

I did it for the wimmins. Damn do they flock.

DragonessAthena
I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.

Agreed. I think that the people who approach comics in that way are the ones who end up in the top 500, and the top 100. They enjoy what they're doing.

Personally, I think I've fallen in love with my comic; not because I think it's particularly good, but because I love making it, and love the story. Ialus' ranking doesn't ultimately matter, in comparison to seeing my characters come to life, and to see the story in my head finally come to light.

It's hard to advance, because the higher up you go in rank, the better the comic(typically, the line's a little fuzzy there). But in general, the top 10 are popular for a reason, just as the 40 underneath them in rank. Moving up means having something that people like more than what already exists there.

I disagree with the idea of this place having a “Glass Ceiling”, mostly because that word was coined to refer to women and minorities not being able to proceed beyond a certain point, but also because I don't see ANYthing that actually prevents anyone from succeeding, save their own abilities and limitations.

MagickLorelai
I disagree with the idea of this place having a “Glass Ceiling”, mostly because that word was coined to refer to women and minorities not being able to proceed beyond a certain point, but also because I don't see ANYthing that actually prevents anyone from succeeding, save their own abilities and limitations.

Gah….

As it applies to the conversation, “minorities” are the comics that aren't in the top tier. Okay?

I think this thread had some good ideas that we need to put out. Since DJ and Amy have came down off their high horses, we should probably be more welcoming to them so that we can form the community drunk duck should be. We should be progressive and friendly, not fighting each other with flames. I could criticize anything if I tried, but whats the point anymore?

And DJ, you have gotten some favoritism from Platinum. You've got ads everywhere, I've noticed hero by night on penis's page. You have an unfair advantage in corporate sponsorship that someone like me doesn't have. I've built my audience through sheer internet charisma and internet drama. The same can be said of Ronson (or spang?) but not of Amy. Amy doesn't have ads for Charby every two drunk duck pages you go to. She doesn't get mentioned on Platinum Studios corporate page or plugged as “last years contest winner” every time the platnium studios book contest is mentioned. Its an unfair advantage having money, and I think its about time I started to throw some around the net. I swear, with just a minimal budget, I could make penis more popular than any of the “top tier” webcomics. By top tier, I mean ones that get hits in the millions. I bet I could do it in just under three months, and with much less money than you would think. If I told you how I'd do it, my ideas would be stole and used just like they always are. So I'm keeping my mouth shut on that until you see how I'd do it.

Marine is like South Park, offensive and jerkish as hell.
But when h's right he's right.

TnTComic
Gah….

As it applies to the conversation, “minorities” are the comics that aren't in the top tier. Okay?

OH. Well, THAT makes the comparison okay, then. :3

A gravity well in space is not “unfair” to space travelers if they have the means to detect it and a chance to avoid it. And that's why the “glass ceiling” doesn't truly exist: there's still a remote chance. Also, a couple people mentioned “unfair advantage” in reference to GoA-K and HBN… yet they rarely hit the #1 spot. I admire the fact that the #1 spot is occupied by someone who did no advertising and got there by sheer grit and determination, while the others who have so-called “corporate sponsorship” are eating her dust.

marine
Its an unfair advantage having money, and I think its about time I started to throw some around the net.

Its not an unfair advantage to have money. You can buy ad space on all the big name webcomics, and if your work doesn't deliver the goods, people won't read your comic. If your comic has what it takes, word of mouth alone will vault it to the top soon enough. Heck, VGCats gives months of frontpage plugging to comics that Ramsoomair simply likes, and those comics reap the benefits of being quality reads.

I swear, with just a minimal budget, I could make penis more popular than any of the “top tier” webcomics. By top tier, I mean ones that get hits in the millions.

None of the top tier comics get daily traffic in the millions.

I bet I could do it in just under three months, and with much less money than you would think. If I told you how I'd do it, my ideas would be stole and used just like they always are. So I'm keeping my mouth shut on that until you see how I'd do it.

Right.

Hey, knock yourself out. Launch your scheme, spend your dough. People read what people like. Not what they're tricked into reading. If you wish to hatch a secret plan, I suggest a secret plan that results in a good comic.

marine
And DJ, you have gotten some favoritism from Platinum. You've got ads everywhere, I've noticed hero by night on penis's page. You have an unfair advantage in corporate sponsorship that someone like me doesn't have… The same can be said of Ronson (or spang?) .. get mentioned on Platinum Studios corporate page or plugged as “last years contest winner” every time the platnium studios book contest is mentioned. Its an unfair advantage having money

Those sound like fair advantages to me, man. :)