Genejoke

ozoneocean
-It's not just one programmer sitting in his office who we're dealing with on this. It's a great big design and programming team with a big business and management structure behind that. Big decision need to be made and approved by multiple layers.

All that and NO-ONE said wait a minute this is going to piss people off big time?

Of course- But as I say there's a big team and a lot of layers, and It takes a lot to convince people to see things a certain way.

People like our chief programmer Lawrence and Kinh at Wowio who manages DD are absolutely dedicated to Drunk Duck, but they aren't DD users, they have no way of seeing the site as we do and or REALLY knowing how we need to be able to use it the way we do. So all of our job (Mine, Skool,s, DD artists and DD readers) is to try and make sure they do.

-Comics in the top ten also on other sites or moving away-
This happens regardless. But it does sort of strengthen the case that there needs to be more work put into accommodating user's needs.

-Skool and I and our stance on Wowio-
We aren't anti-wowio, just pro DD. In some respects we're walking a line here, but it's our job to make sure both sides can resolve things: Put the Wowio case to DD and put the DD case to Wowio.

Tim Wellman
That's a silly response. I KNOW FOR A FACT they're leaving because they've all joined and are now posting their comics on the same webcomics site I just joined. THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE, I CAN BACK IT UP WITH PROOF. Go visit the other sites instead of sitting here defending WOWIO, you'll see dozens of the top 100 comics on DD (including a couple of recent Feature comics) now on a couple of other webcomics sites, and they've all joined in the last week. PROOF, not worthless statements.

My issue with what you said was that you were just sort of throwing it out there without any sort of evidence or authority, which made it easily dismissable. It read like hyperbole which weakened the rest of what you were saying. I'd still argue that setting up mirror locations on other sites doesn't necessarily indicate intent to leave DD (as “one foot out the door” suggests), as mirrors can be about increasing exposure etc. etc. also.

I'll just say that if people ARE setting up on other sites because they don't like where Wowio is going with DD, I strongly invite them to tell that to Oz or myself, since we can use that as evidence. It might be worth telling that to wowio themselves also so they get that personal message. (but still make sure oz and I know, too, because wowio probably isn't going to fwd that kind of thing to us.)

You've been very… I don't know, overreactive, about recent happenings on Drunk Duck, and while I'm not dismissing what you say I do think that the image you're building as “aggressively negative” will make it easier for people who want to ignore your arguments to do so. I think you ARE saying important things but you don't want the delivery to cloud that. The stuff you were saying when DD went down a few weeks ago was very hyperbolic, painting Wowio as uncaring fatcats and making all kinds of other assumptions about what was going on and who was involved. I'm sure you had significant messages then too, but all I remember right now is that you were angry and some of the stuff you said was a bit unreasonable. It wasn't what you were saying but the way you were saying it. I'm not trying to tell you to lighten up, just be cautious about how you're presenting your message. The last thing you want to do (if you want to be taken seriously) is to come off as someone who makes a lot of wild statements and glib accusations.

Edit: Your more recent response is much better. :]

Someone
-Skool and I and our stance on Wowio-
We aren't anti-wowio, just pro DD. In some respects we're walking a line here, but it's our job to make sure both sides can resolve things: Put the Wowio case to DD and put the DD case to Wowio.

Not suggesting you were but was trying to say I hope you two don't get grief for it, sort of like the reverse of the last load of it when you got accused sucking up to wowio. You are stuck in the middle and the way it's going is treading a fine line and I really hope it falls the right side of that line.

skoolmunkee
I'll just say that if people ARE setting up on other sites because they don't like where Wowio is going with DD, I strongly invite them to tell that to Oz or myself, since we can use that as evidence.

The recent big crash reminded me I should work on my getting my own site functional before I get back in action. I already planned to do it. I figured DD would be equal or possibly that my own site would be the mirror.

I am however pretty upset at the hidden changes. If I put my comic on another FREE webhost it is because I don't know for sure if I like where Wowio is going. I'm trying to keep an open mind and even negotiate. But if I can't keep my web design updated on my main site and on DD the same with all it's interactive features for my readers then I'm still debating if I'll want to continue uploading here at all in the future.

I'm not trying to sound harsh or negative. I don't hate Wowio and I understand many of their decisions. I've just grown to require a bit more to give to my readers. I enjoy offering a fun presentation for my medium and at this point (for a web comic) to me that seems nearly as important as the comic itself.

I was almost excited when you mentioned that the current lay out will be transferred. Then I remembered I have a dropdown to display each issue I wouldn't be able to update and an interactive map that shows the locations of the story as it is advancing while I hide easter eggs I'd never be able to update. Not to mention the fact that I may someday come up with an even BETTER web design that I may wish to implement at the time.

I'll send my thoughts to Wowio themselves as well.

Just one annoying little bug with the new site (I don't know if this has been noted)… on a comic page, if for example you're on page “1” you have to press “previous” to get to page 2 :S (unless I'm missing something, in which case, you haven't seeeeen or heeearrrd meeeee wooooooo thisss poossst doessssn't exxxxxiisssstttt!)

x
S

Some bugs
-Can't upload a thumbnail.
-If I upload a new page it appears behind the previous page.
-Forum topic don't seem to move.
-Capital letter bug.
-Trophies don't work…

Also, I can't find the stat page. Is it just put somewhere obscure or has it not been added yet?
I dislike some of the functionality, such things as clicking my profile to go to my profile page.
For example, merging the profile page an CP into one thing.
Also, I really don't like how I can see a button to edit and delete other people's comics.
Also, in page manager clicking on the comic title gives me an error.
Also, where does it display new comments? I like being able to see if there's been a new comment.
Also, one thing I like is the like feature.
Also, the word also no longer makes sense to me.


EDIT: Also, I like that hovering on the main page works now, but I dislike how a comic page number is displayed as x page(s). Since most comics have more than 1 page, the brackets are unnecessary.
Oh, and also, there really needs to be a reply button on the bottom of thread pages.

Still no rego email. What's this room of ‘programmers +1’ up to if they can't fix registrations?

A lot of people have expressed my sentiments, so I'll keep this short.

The issue with the raw html needs to be changed, seriously. There's no way I'd want to be on a site where I couldn't change my html, what would be the point of that. And also, “The Duck”??? Seriously, at first I thought that was a temp name for the preview edition, but they're serious? Wow Wowio, thanks for asking us first (except not)! I remember when Comicgenesis changed its name it was decided 100% by the users. Why haven't we been able to give it a go? Why does it *need* to involve the work “duck”?

I feel its a slap in the face to have that huge crash and then show us this preview site with all these odd changes and themes that we didn't get to vote for. Is this being used to divert our attention from other problems that haven't bubbled to the surface yet? And why is that highlighter green/yellow color scheme still being used when many people were unhappy about it when Wowio initially decided to change the site (and then changed it back to this version after the extensive problems).

I'll stay, I'm not paying anyone to have my comic here. But the users need to be involved more with the changes, we're the ones using this site all the time, we need to have a say in what stays and goes! >_>

skreem
Just one annoying little bug with the new site (I don't know if this has been noted)… on a comic page, if for example you're on page “1” you have to press “previous” to get to page 2 :S (unless I'm missing something, in which case, you haven't seeeeen or heeearrrd meeeee wooooooo thisss poossst doessssn't exxxxxiisssstttt!)

x
S

I mentioned it. is it on one you uploaded? I noticed it on what i uploaded but old stuff was fine.

The duck, rhymes with…

That was my first thought on the name. It doesn't bother me as much, I'm kind of indifferent but it's a strange choice.

How about “Dynamic Duck Comics”, shows that the Duck has changed and sobered up, and give the duck a superhero outfit xD. Or “Demonic Duck comics” and give the site a dark, gothic theme to resolve the horrible color issues.

(I jest).

I quite like ‘What The Duck?!’ myself.

JustNoPoint
I was almost excited when you mentioned that the current lay out will be transferred. Then I remembered I have a dropdown to display each issue I wouldn't be able to update and an interactive map that shows the locations of the story as it is advancing while I hide easter eggs I'd never be able to update. Not to mention the fact that I may someday come up with an even BETTER web design that I may wish to implement at the time.

I second this. I'm happy if they plan to transfer our templates as is, but not being able to update them is a problem. My extra content in particular is dynamic content. I update my summaries after the end of a long story arc. It is key for a long comic to get any kind of new readership (and for established readers too). I already look lazy for nat keeping it up to date as well as I should, but to have it frozen forever in time wouldn't do well at all.

I don't mean to be critical. I think the Wowio programmers are talented people. I think they have good ideas – but it seems that they don't know how DDers use the website. They are adding things they THINK we'd like and removing features that were some of the main reasons many joined this host in the first place (and doing so without even suggesting such changes in all of the many previews they've been putting up; which makes me wonder if they knew we wouldn't like it to begin with… but I'll avoid that can of worms conspiracy theory and give them the benefit of the doubt). I think Wowio could do fantastic things if they'd stop being so shut off from the DD users. They seem to either want to appear to listen or perhaps they are generally interested in our input but for whatever reason didn't think the “surprise” changes would be a big deal. (Again, it seems they don't know how people use this site…)

If this is simply a case of genuine interest in our input but a lack of information, then it can be fixed. We just tell them HOW we use the site. That customization is very important. Extra content is necessary for any established webcomic and to not have that ability makes this host either less ideal or unacceptable except as a mirror at best. Link exchanges are necessary for generating traffic. No matter what promotions The Duck does on its own, it's ultimately the webcomics that bring their own audiences, and if the webcomic looks unprofessional in a cookie-cutter template, cannot be dynamic, and cannot be personal, then the audience will be turned away.

I do hope this is just a misunderstanding in how webcomics and webcomic sites WORK, and I hope Wowio can take their skills and put them to use to make a fantastic user and reader friendly webcomic site – rather than simply a functional gallery of creative but useless, well-coded features. I think they can. I really do. I'm rooting for them and us, and I hope they listen. (We are intelligent people after all, and our input should not be feared…)

o_O Wow, I was the 1st person to use the feedback on the actual website to mention the disapproval of removing the Raw html editing abilities?

Actually there are not very many things been said (in public) there at all! I do hope more users chime in on their feedback with their frustration. I at least linked back here but I worry if there are enough voices against such an idea to get their attention at the moment :(

Oh and btw I am like totally against the whole no raw html thing.
I use comicrank on my site to monitor stats across both sites and would very much like to maintain doing so.
Wowio, please fix this.
Kthnkxbye.

JustNoPoint
o_O Wow, I was the 1st person to use the feedback on the actual website to mention the disapproval of removing the Raw html editing abilities?

Actually there are not very many things been said (in public) there at all! I do hope more users chime in on their feedback with their frustration. I at least linked back here but I worry if there are enough voices against such an idea to get their attention at the moment :(

I was just wondering about how much the feedback button is being used when I read your post.

There are so many Important bug reports in this thread and they mean almost nothing if you don't go through the minor hassle of setting up a feedback account. You have to be on the preview site, select the side tab that reads feedback, and then follow the directions.

It's a bit of a pain because they want each bug reported separately, and not a laundry list from each user. But once a bug/complaint has been reported, then I think there's something like a “me too” thing you can select.

It's important that w3e all do this because, as Oz has written at least twice, maybe Lawrence or someone will glance through this thread, but they want metrics, and it would be a pain in the ass to create them from this thread.

—

on another note, even though I suspect Tim Wellman may (or may not) be thinking of my comic when he refers to the grade school work of some DDers, I really appreciate his passion. It means he cares. And frankly , he's right.

I strongly urge those artists who have left or are in the process of leaving to please use the feedback on the preview site.

—

I agree with the users who aren't happy with “The Duck” but realize it's not the most critical issue. Since DrunkDuck is decidedly dead, I vote either just “DD” or “What the Duck” (edgy attitude sells, don't it?)

—
re the feedback site, the url is: http://getsatisfaction.com/drunkduck/topics
but I doubt you can get direct access unless you've set up a (this is great) satisfaction account.

EVERYONE PLEASE DO IT. There are currently very few comments there.

Someone
Actually there are not very many things been said (in public) there at all! I do hope more users chime in on their feedback with their frustration.

Like Oz and JustNoPoint and ayesinback says, it's time to stop complaining only here and to post there. I do hate to make some kind of registration for a thing like this, and do not understand why they cannot check this thread instead. BUT, if this “get satisfaction” thing is the only way that we have a chance to get listened to, let's do it. No matter what Wowio's decision will be regarding the feedback, they won't be able to say that “we never told them so”.

If more people start using it of course…

Psh, let those artists leave, then I can get into the top 100 again only with much more minimal effort.

And with much more minimal amounts of readers :P

Someone
Like Oz and JustNoPoint and ayesinback says, it's time to stop complaining only here and to post there. I do hate to make some kind of registration for a thing like this, and do not understand why they cannot check this thread instead. BUT, if this “get satisfaction” thing is the only way that we have a chance to get listened to, let's do it. No matter what Wowio's decision will be regarding the feedback, they won't be able to say that “we never told them so”.

If more people start using it of course…

It's the registration thing that puts people off, there would be a lot more comments if not for that. Also because there is no reply to feedback given it feels like we are talking to a brick wall…

Genejoke
It's the registration thing that puts people off, there would be a lot more comments if not for that. Also because there is no reply to feedback given it feels like we are talking to a brick wall…

Agreed; very off-putting.

I have three yahoo email accounts for reasons like this. SO EASY to set up a .gmail or yahoo account.

NOTE: I had used my twitter account (it's ayesinback) and somehow my real name was picked up from twitter to this satisfaction thing. So, I don't recommend using your twitter account if you don't like “worlds colliding” like me. Just set up a satisfaction account.

ayesinback
NOTE: I had used my twitter account (it's ayesinback) and somehow my real name was picked up from twitter to this satisfaction thing. So, I don't recommend using your twitter account if you don't like “worlds colliding” like me. Just set up a satisfaction account.

Same thing happened with facebook, but name and profile pic can be changed afterwards. Although yes it is more simple to get get satisfaction account. I just didn't want to have another account to remember.

I don't plan to leave DD. However, if it doesn't provide the basic functions necessary to run a webcomic, I guess it will have to function only as a mirror. Other people already do that, but I use it as my main host.

http://getsatisfaction.com/drunkduck/topics
get in there and support the issues you want resolved

usedbooks
I don't plan to leave DD. However, if it doesn't provide the basic functions necessary to run a webcomic, I guess it will have to function only as a mirror. Other people already do that, but I used it as my main host.

This, I am very close to leaving but the community here is too good. If the user ad thing isn't sorted then all the advertising I do will take traffic elsewhere. Something I think a lot of people will(are) do(ing) even if they haunt the forums i can't see how it will be much good to wowio.

Can we ban some threads on there such as this one:
http://getsatisfaction.com/drunkduck/topics/why_is_this_so

I really doubt skool will find it as funny as they did.


And I will never NEVER leave “the Duck”.

Seriously. I'm going to be 65 and still not be off here guys.

I'm sure someone will delete it in time.

Why not call it Daring Duck? Dress the Duck like Zorro and have him swinging in on a rope, sword drawn, and his side-kick, the quail, clinging to the Duck's cape in terror. Sound fun? X3

As to the HTML stuff… can't use it, so it doesn't bother me. Substansively, however, I must largely agree with Mr. Wellman's arguments. Without comics, DD wouldn't exist. Though my leaving, which may happen anyway due to personal difficulties, would do nothing to alter things, as my readership is shrinking drastically. :(

Genejoke

usedbooks
I don't plan to leave DD. However, if it doesn't provide the basic functions necessary to run a webcomic, I guess it will have to function only as a mirror. Other people already do that, but I used it as my main host.

This, I am very close to leaving but the community here is too good. If the user ad thing isn't sorted then all the advertising I do will take traffic elsewhere. Something I think a lot of people will(are) do(ing) even if they haunt the forums i can't see how it will be much good to wowio.

I should clarify that my statement was not intended as a threat or emotional in any way. I have never intended on leaving DD and still don't (and if I did, I hardly think it would make any difference; I have a small readership, not a top anything comic). It is simple arithmetic. To run a webcomic, I require A, B, and C. Therefore, if DD doesn't provide A, B, and C, I have to run my webcomic elsewhere. It's the same thought process I went through years ago to choose a host in the first place.

Although I did choose my host based on features, I have become fond of the people/spirit/atmosphere here, so if the features go away, I will keep it as a mirror. I'd love to keep it as my main site and will do so if I am able (in other words, if it retains the ability/features to function as such).

I'll optimistically reserve such decisions until the new site is finalized. I am working on a nice mirror site, anyway, so my customized look, extra content, promotional stuff, link exchanges, etc. will have a home if Wowio decides it cannot be here.

sorry to hear that @vwyler. :(
as to the rest. well the duck will probably survive. i mean i was there at beliefnet when they made massive modifications that crippled thier ad evenue and social comunities, loosing 7 out of 10 people using it, but hey it survived. but its the difference between making a smooth transition to a site that makes money and the hamfisted mangling, no i stand corected. the dilbertization of a method of expression. that would probably be a good sounding point for anyone leaving. make the last dd comic made be a rendition of how artistic expression and readership were both cowed. we're artists, when we decide to make fun of people in masse theres no real way of stopping it. think how many political cartoons only exist to say “up your's sir and the duck you rode in on” :D
personally i use dd as mirror. if i was stumbling around in the dark and grabbed html instead of my left butt check i'd have no way of telling the difference. but it seems to me that by limiting the expression of the artists you limit the artsits coming here and without great artsists (and small ones :D) we wont be getting any hits comming here. and lets face it, wowio wants to make some money off this gig, and who can blame them. just keep in mind who provides the content that people are actually turning up for. not team wowio unless they'd like to pick up a pen and give it a whirl.