As far as customized html, my web design is a slight modification of Aelwyn's CSS Template. Usedbooks also has provided coding of her design that I think several people use as the basis of their designs. I'm sure there are several other similar cases.

With that in mind, could the templates from that forum be used as the new Duck templates, with the ability to change color schemes and use original image files?

And for the DDers who have created one-of-a-kind designs, if they want to do this, could their designs be considered for use as modifiable templates for others?

I request that Wowio assess what's already being used and identify what if any modifications might be needed to these designs rather than have us all go the roundabout way of providing them a wish list of line items. The codes are Right There – we like them – see if they'll work. It can't be so much more work than writing brand new code and then trying to sell it to everyone who was already happy with what they had.

One of my concerns is that Wowio wants to line up all of these ducks in a very homogeneous manner for marketing purposes, which would certainly make marketing easier, but would severely dampen the spirit of diversity and camaraderie that is one of the greatest attractions of Drunk Duck. Killing the Duck that lays the golden egg

(still hatin the egg, but maybe they'll get the reference)

I don't like giving that much information out. i just want to post feed back. The fact that i'm a pretty frequent user of drunkduck should count as something.

Someone
A comic needs to be of a certain level of popularity to make any money off ads, the vast majority of comics on DD do not hit that level. Perhaps business-wise they realize they are alienating a small percentage of users (albiet one which brings in traffic and contributes to the community at a generally higher level), but the numbers may be in their favor here. Upsetting a smaller number of people to ensure provision of service for everybody could just be a pragmatic decision.

I make just enough off the ads to pay for my own advertising. I break even and that works, or did.



I'm off.

seventy2
I don't like giving that much information out. i just want to post feed back. The fact that i'm a pretty frequent user of drunkduck should count as something.

Are you talking about not using the feedback form?

Then that's silly because even Skool and I and all the programmers and designers involved in the creation of the new system are ALL using a special system to log bugs and feedback. We all have to be signed in and stuff man!
The thing is this stuff needs to be worked on by actual programmers and designers working NOW so they can't look here there and everywhere for info on bugs or general feedback, it all has to be streamlined into one place so they can easily go through it.

THIS thread is worse than useless for that because it's full of higgledy piggledy user responses and stuff.

Feedback and bugs that you post in the feedback system on the new site gets seen directly by Wowio people. Any bugs or problems all get entered right into the bug tracking system that Skool and I and the rest of the programmers and designers are using so they can be worked on and fixed.
________________

@OnlyFoolsAndVikings Love the Intervention story! ^_^
________________

-Addressing people's concerns about custom HTML:
YES. This aspect needs a lot of tweaking on the new site. From what we've talked about with Lawrence, those who have custom HTML now will have their templates all carried across in full, including dub pages etc, But then those won't be changeable in the current system. So I'll keep on about changing that.

Mainly because a comic hosting site that doesn't allow users a high of control over how their work is presented does reduce its own value. Comic hosting is different from things like blog sites and news sites, These are FAR more creatively focussed spaces with extremely different requirements for both the user-base and the viewerbase.
________________

About PW ads and links to other comics, vote buttons etc:
YUP. Another aspect that is under discussion. Everything People like Gene and Usebooks have said is right on the mark- comics NEED links to outside comics and sites in order to stay viable and grow in popularity. Users NEED the ability to place reciprocal links so they links to their own stuff can be placed on outside comics and that can draw traffic to them and into DD. As well as link exchanges between other DD comics. Without that ability the site WILL begin to lose traffic and the toplists will stagnate to stone.
Users also need PW ads in order to make their first step towards using ads as well as subsidising their OWN advertising.



-In short, without those sorts of abilities, the site becomes something not really focussed on webcomics. It becomes more of a simplified online web-gallery system. So if anyone really cares about their work and pushing it forward, they will avoid DD.
This is WHY we have to continually put the focus on these things. DD is NOT a web-gallery.

Most of the few hopes I had for Wowio beeing sincere about caring for other things then they're own thing is beeing crushed bit by bit. The way they handle all this just seems like indifference and fake politeness to me. I may still be wrong, but it's not looking any good to me. Drunkuck is beginning to lose what made me chose this site, and look like all the other ones I didn't care much about.

I've checked the new layout options they put up. Most are fine and satisfy what I need for now. And I must say that the basic template looks better than many on other sites. But I'd still like to know that I can edit it as much as I want if I feel the need to in the future. I know it can't be discussed, and probably wouldn't be listened to if it could, but I'm just saying. I actually don't really know what is the point of this thread…

I do understand the add thing, I always saw it as a big priviledge that we didn't have them on DD. But now it looks like Wowio read the forum thread about “annoying adds” and chose all those to put in there. I'm not a marketing expert, but couldn't they have adds more comics/art related? Would probably benefit them more, I think.

I'm not too fond of the namechange, but the first time I heard about “Drunkduck”, I did have negative judgement, so I won't oppose a change, but “The Duck” is really ridiculous. And the egg looks like it's easter everyday.

I don't see how we can report bugs when we're told than half the site isn't functional, but not what exactly is and isn't.

I said in a previous post that I wouldn't leave unless the site get runned by assholes. I hope that's not what's going to happen. Not that my departure would change anything, but I really really really like Drunkduck, and it would be a shame to see it downgrade into the sterile place I see when I think about “The Duck”.

demontales
. But I'd still like to know that I can edit it as much as I want if I feel the need to in the future. I know it can't be discussed, and probably wouldn't be listened to if it could, but I'm just saying. I actually don't really know what is the point of this thread..

The point of this tread was to introduce the new site.

-You may have missed all my posts Demontales… So I'll reiterate this:
Skool and I are agents for Wowio on DD, we're also advocates for DD to Wowio. ALL these functionality and feature issues are taken VERY seriously. We ARE putting a case about those to the design and programming team. This is an extremely serious issue because it impacts directly on what sort of site this is: a webcomic host as opposed to a blogging site, or a news site, a social networking site, or a web-gallery, all VERY different beasts in their focus and the way communities use them.

At the moment the preview site probably needs to be re-set on course to webcomics and away from those other types of sites.

Your feedback, like others here is valuable in putting that case :)

Ozone, you keep referring to the site as DD - shouldn't you be using The D now?

The way the name change was handled says it all really. Apparently the change is non negotiable, has been set in stone for some time and the reasons for it must have been under discussion about for at least as long. So when do we get to hear about it? We don't - it's just there, at the top of the page.

Why not mention it way back when everybody was complaining about obtrusive ads? Why not explain they could get better advertising deals if the name was altered slightly? Would anyone have objected if it was framed in those terms, back when these decisions needed to be made?

I've been around long enough to know exactly what we're dealing with here, but I'll stop now as it's too easy to dismiss a lifetime of hard won experience as cynicism. Those who don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

ozoneocean
-You may have missed all my posts Demontales…

I read them, and I do believe that you and Skoolmunkee are doing all you can to keep the important functionalities. I've got nothing against you two. And I still do have some hopes that the changes won't be so bad. But I don't trust Wowio much, and I don't know if their decisions can really be changed, or if they're just giving us an illusion of wanting feedback so that we stay nice and calm.

It's that the way things look now, they could go ok, or horribly wrong. And it would be sad if it was the last one.

This is how I feel, some aspects are really good but a few points are leaving a bad taste in my mouth. The worst aspect is the way things are being slipped in and when people complain it's like water off a ducks back. see what i did there?

Genejoke
This is how I feel, some aspects are really good but a few points are leaving a bad taste in my mouth. The worst aspect is the way things are being slipped in and when people complain it's like water off a ducks back. see what i did there?

But not a drunk duck's back.



The preview site doesn't want to load for me now.

Is Wowio very set on “The Duck?” Maybe we could have a contest to come up with a new, family-friendly adjective so the community at least gets some input there.

Hippie Van
Is Wowio very set on “The Duck?” Maybe we could have a contest to come up with a new, family-friendly adjective so the community at least gets some input there.

They already said several times that they're not changing it. And considering how their stance on everything thus far has been “deal with it, chumps” I seriously doubt they'll hold a content and pick names out of a hat or whatever.

Hippie Van
Is Wowio very set on “The Duck?” Maybe we could have a contest to come up with a new, family-friendly adjective so the community at least gets some input there.

Actually, originally Skool and I were asked to help with a new name, but try as we might we just couldn't think of anything better than what was chosen- you know, to fit in with the old name as well as NOT being the old name.
Actually, I think the first one that was chosen was “the quack”. Skool and I just had no fricken idea. Personally, I think “the duck” is a massive improvement on that! Anyway, the other problem was that most of the other good names people thought of in a duck theme were taken by domain squatters and they asked $100,000s for them.

As for that over DD. Well, objectively “the duck” IS a better name, obviously, but I do have a massive sentimental attachment to “Drunk Duck” because that's been the site name for so long. But then, site names DO change: Does anybody remember Keen Space? I STILL call it that even though it's been Comic Genesis for years now. But it was Keenspace when I first had my Pinky TA mirror there so that's what it'll always be to me.

If you could think of a fricken kick arse name that really fit with the old name and all the branding AND it wasn't already taken by a domain squatter (so you'd have to tell it to them in secret) then of course they'd consider it.

———-
As for more changes, I think people are being a bit hung up on the name thing, which IS an issue, but a separate one, and also about that horrible yellow colour scheme which is now starting to annoy me a lot too. Other changes are of course possible and only happen BECAUSE the admins and the community want them.
Guess what: apathetic people get nothing. Apathetic people get what's given to them because no one ever really knows any different. These guys have to KNOW what you need.

demontales
I don't see how we can report bugs when we're told than half the site isn't functional, but not what exactly is and isn't.

My suggestion would be to submit both! Stuff that appears broken and stuff that just isn't there that you want. We can talk to Wowio and tell them “look, users need to be able to see a list of their pages and organize them in various ways A B C D” and you guys submitting that stuff just backs us up (or includes things we might have forgotten).

You're right, the Quack would have been worse (not much but a little). One word names suck. One word names with a “the” are worse. Heh. I kinda wish they'd just changed the “drunk” to a different “D” adjective because we are DDers, and it is DD. In fact, I rarely called it DrunkDuck, always DD. (We've never been “duckers” or whatever, no matter how many times some non-DDer tried to use that.) Yeah, it's minor, but it's still a stupid name. At least the old stupid name had catchy initials. I'm sticking to calling everything DD no matter what the banners say. I'll change the other “D” to different adjectives depending on my mood. ;) (It can be Dim, Daunting, Dreary, or Dormant Duck for now. If some good changes are made, perhaps it will become dazzling or dashing, at the very least distinguished – hopefully never detrimental or doomed.)

The issue of customization is the most important right now. I think it is wise to allow link exchanges and PW. It isn't just a matter of member privilege and advantage. That is the backbone of site traffic – especially for the top 100 sites. Some of them are excellent at marketing. Tying their hands will hurt DD traffic, and I wouldn't blame them for dropping DD as their host (at least their main host) if their readership drops. That kinda defeats the purpose of the DD ad placement to let the site support itself. You need traffic to make profit from ads.

Other customization options give individual comics their identities. Readers don't like to be reminded that they are viewing a “hosted” comic. Somehow it cheapens things for them and it gives comics a black mark. So custom graphics are important and having layout options is a good idea too. Even simple things such as which side to have comments are, option of comment box above or below comments, option of having navigation above or below the comic page image or both, etc. would be fantastic. Maybe port over some of the user-made layouts to act as templates.

One more note here in case the Wowio people read this thread. (If they do, kudos to them!) Everything is very TINY. I use bifocals. Small print and images make me sad. :( Can we have bigger print and avatars? I think they are quite lovely at 100 x 100 pixels or at least 80 x 80.

I guess all things will change, even names. But I'd still like to keep the “Drunk” in the name in honor of the duck that inspired the name of the site… My memory can be bad, but I think I read somewhere that the site creator's duck had died and he thought it looked kinda drunk or something…

usedBooks
Heh. I kinda wish they'd just changed the “drunk” to a different “D” adjective because we are DDers, and it is DD.

It could be called DD only. :)

Lonnehart
I guess all things will change, even names. But I'd still like to keep the “Drunk” in the name in honor of the duck that inspired the name of the site… My memory can be bad, but I think I read somewhere that the site creator's duck had died and he thought it looked kinda drunk or something…

They wanted to name the site after the resently deceased duck, but deadduck.com sounded really bad. drunkduck is comparitively better.

The story in the creator's words

skoolmunkee

Tim Wellman
I have one foot out the door (like almost everyone else in the top 100)

Please don't throw in statements like this about other people that you can't possibly speak for, it reduces the strength of your argument. Stick to your own experience and don't try to enlarge your point by saying things you can't back up.

That's a silly response. I KNOW FOR A FACT they're leaving because they've all joined and are now posting their comics on the same webcomics site I just joined. THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE, I CAN BACK IT UP WITH PROOF. Go visit the other sites instead of sitting here defending WOWIO, you'll see dozens of the top 100 comics on DD (including a couple of recent Feature comics) now on a couple of other webcomics sites, and they've all joined in the last week. PROOF, not worthless statements.

The Duck isn't a very nice name, as I suggested earlier though, The Webcomic Duck sounds marginally better.

But I like the idea of having DD still around, so that it will always be DD to everyone who's been around for a while.

Tim Wellman: If you want to leave then leave, no one's stopping you. Buh-bye now.

BffSatan
Tim Wellman: If you want to leave then leave, no one's stopping you. Buh-bye now.

Sentences like that have doomed companies in the past, Bff (speaking from experience). Let's give Wowio themselves a chance to have their say on Wellman's statement before you speak on their behalf.

As for myself, I'd prefer to see no one leave and I would imagine that anyone running a web site that's dependent on as many pageviews as possible would think the same.

BffSatan
“Webcomic Duck”

…

WD, you say?

…

Webcomic Duck 40… The website with thousand uses. lol!

Webcomic Duck is a really bad name too. Might as well call the site Yolk From Egg. When you upload a comic it would say “YOLK FROM EGG” and depending on the inflection it would tell you whether it uploaded or failed.

Hahaha Gordon Bennet, they're changing the name?

I guess…They wanted to confuse people, as well as blind them?
I just hope they redo the forum pages on the new layout, jebus that is confusing as hell and really ugly to boot.

I've actually already left… I won't be updating Time Girls anymore on DD.

What needs to be pointed out is this… Time Girls is rated #71 overall and #56 in Comic Books… sure, I'm one guy… but how many of us can WOWIO drive away before DrunkDuck/TheDuck becomes a site of only sprite and gradeschool stick figure comics. That's not going to get them any ad banner clicks… they need me and my other colleagues who draw comics that people actually come here to read. The webcomics themselves are the only reason anyone comes here… WOWIO doesn't understand that… they don't get that WE have THEIR economic future in our hands. They should be bending over backwards to please US… not shouting down commands from upon high and expecting us to follow… WE LEAD, THEY FOLLOW.

And the name change thing… that really didn't bother me, but the fact that OZ said they knew about it for months and didn't tell us, and that we artists were not allowed into the discussion from the beginning… that just highlights WOWIO and their habits.

Again, without artists, DD is an empty, barren ad farm… and if other artists don't speak up now… I don't know what else to say… NONE of the new changes should happen… artists should make it COMPLETELY clear that you won't stand for it… there are plenty of other webcomic sites, some with no ads at all, complete html editing and all the ad and link banners you care to use. You should stand up and make that clear… DD depends on US… and WE dictate what changes are made. Otherwise, shut her down… because it's going to fail anyway with no good artists remaining… do up the site the way WE want, or shut her down.

If you don't stand up to them now, you'll bend over for them forever… you decide. I've tried my best to help.

Actually what caused comics to move hosts or make mirrors on places like Comic Fury was the big crash and then the ongoing issues with fixes about 3 weeks ago Tim. Please don't confuse the arguments. They aren't entirely related.

_________
As for hissyfits and leaving-
I'll tell you guys something: Back when Platinum was making changes years ago and put those ugly mandatory ads underneath everyone's comics in that grey bar I really saw red. I was an admin at the time, but I still said that I'd quite DD if things didn't improve and I encouraged people to put stuff on their templates that said not to click the ad under their comics.
I moved most of my main efforts to my own self hosted site and saw DD as just another mirror for me at that stage.
I was very seriously thinking of quitting as an admin altogether.

DJ Coffman openly criticised my anti-Platinum stance in the main forums of DD because of that.
I got reprimanded privately by some high up people at Platinum, with lot's of people talking to me privately trying to mollify me…

So eventually they DID mollify me and I realised that for all my antipathy to the changes, if I left then there would be one less person to keep things on track for the DD community and help to stop further changes that everyone hated. In the end I loved DD and the community primarily and those issues were secondary.

Anyway, All websites have a constant turnover of users for all sorts of reasons, so leaving somewhere for most people isn't a big a deal as you may think at the time.

Someone
Actually what caused comics to move hosts or make mirrors on places like Comic Fury was the big crash and then the ongoing issues with fixes about 3 weeks ago Tim. Please don't confuse the arguments. They aren't entirely related.

This is only half true, I've seen just as many registrations over there in the last three days or so as when the site crashed, and this time it doesn't really seem to be tapering off.

Oh boy…

Okay, first off, I remember back when Platinum still owned this site, there were always a number of people complaining about their actions and their policies and how they were handling DD. The point is that whenever changes of any kind are made, whether from an original company or under new ownership, those changes are always going to piss some people off. I'm sure that Wowio could have launched a completely different beta version of the site, and the forums would still be flooded by people with problems of a completely different nature. Whenever changes of any kind are implemented on a mass scale like this on any site, you're always going to scare away a sizeable number of viewers in the process, regardless of how it's handled. The fact is, no matter what you do with a website, you'll never be able to satisfy everybody.

That being said, I do have to agree with most of the users in that Wowio could have seriously handled this a lot better than it did. Things like removing raw html are a serious deal-breaker with a lot of web-comic artists, and while I can understand why Wowio would want to do this from both a security-risk and business standpoint, it severely stunts creative freedom and in the long-run could damage them as a company, both in reputation and financially, and I seriously think they should reconsider their decisions on a lot of the new elements they want to implement in the site redisign. At the very least, I think they should compromise and make something akin to a drag-and-drop page creator (which I think is what skool is suggesting) while still allowing link-exchanges and user-created ads, even if only in a limited capacity.

And while I understand that some of these issues are non-negotiable (name change nonwithstanding, and I have to agree it was rather underhanded how Wowio handled that), it's also to my understanding that the mods and admins have argued and negotiated extensively with Wowio over many of these things, and I for one am glad that we have people like that who, even if the company won't listen to them in the end, are at least willing to try and raise as much hell as possible to voice the users' interests over matters like these. And for that, I am greatful.

So in the end, yes, if you want to blame Wowio for not paying as much attention to their userbase as they should, feel free to so; you deserve to speak your piece. But please, let's not start laying blame on people for things beyond their control and avoid turning this into an online shouting match.

Dave7
it's also to my understanding that the mods and admins have argued and negotiated extensively with Wowio over many of these things, and I for one am glad that we have people like that who, even if the company won't listen to them in the end, are at least willing to try and raise as much hell as possible to voice the users' interests over matters like these. And for that, I am greatful.

Thankyou for your support Dave.

I just want to make one thing clear though: Wowio DO listen to us. It's just that there is a massive momentum to the things that've been put in motion and it takes a lot of room to turn this Supertanker around. :)
We have to put cases very strongly, explain in detail and show that user support is on the side certain things and off the same opinion in order to change things.

-It's not just one programmer sitting in his office who we're dealing with on this. It's a great big design and programming team with a big business and management structure behind that. Big decision need to be made and approved by multiple layers.

i love the new comic preview system, including the filter, and also the featured comic preview,. only thing i would suggest here is to show whole titles if it is possible, and it would be nice to see when the comic was updated last time in main information, it's quite important for me. but in overall, it still progress :)

(and in my opinion DrunkDuck sounds much better, but i don't mind if you change it, the site itself is more important than the tittle)

Someone
-It's not just one programmer sitting in his office who we're dealing with on this. It's a great big design and programming team with a big business and management structure behind that. Big decision need to be made and approved by multiple layers.

All that and NO-ONE said wait a minute this is going to piss people off big time?

Also when comics that regularly haunt the top ten popping up on other sites when they haven't before alarm bells should be ringing.

Also as Dave7 said I don't think anyone should be bitching about admins, there really is no reason to and it IS good to know someone is sticking up for the users. I hope no one gets a slap on the wrist for having an anti wowio stance for agreeing with users.

In so many ways I just want to drop the site but I can't, not completely anyway.

Someone
-It's not just one programmer sitting in his office who we're dealing with on this. It's a great big design and programming team with a big business and management structure behind that. Big decision need to be made and approved by multiple layers.

All that and NO-ONE said wait a minute this is going to piss people off big time?

Also when comics that regularly haunt the top ten popping up on other sites when they haven't before alarm bells should be ringing.

Also as Dave7 said I don't think anyone should be bitching about admins, there really is no reason to and it IS good to know someone is sticking up for the users. I hope no one gets a slap on the wrist for having an anti wowio stance for agreeing with users.

In so many ways I just want to drop the site but I can't, not completely anyway.