You might have noticed a forum thread discussing whether AI comics should be hosted on the Duck. As always, big decisions on TOS or policy are discussed with the community on the Duck before we take any decisions. Whether DD will be hosting AI comics or not is one such decision. I urge you to read through this article, perhaps also do your own research, and then sound off in the comments here or in the forum thread.
So the issue is whether DD should host AI comics at all. And if no, why, or if yes, under which conditions (and why).
The whole issue of AI art and (lately) AI comics coming in strong to disrupt the artistic community is no news at this point: the artist community has already been pointing out the big problems AI art and its shadily collected datasets are presenting.
You would think that the comics industry is insulated from this issue, given the sequential nature of comics and graphic novels, and the need to keep characters and setting consistent throughout a work, but you'd be wrong . AI comics are already a thing. People have been making them and they want to be able to pitch them to audiences and publishers alike, alongside human-made comics.
AI art is spilling into comics as much as it is in every other segment within the art field. And we need to make a decision on what to do about it, as AI comic creators have already been knocking on the doors, so to speak, of DD asking to be hosted.
Now, if you take a look at the forum thread, you will see I'm absolutely, adamantly against the notion of AI comics art until at LEAST the datasets it's being trained on are ethically harvested/collected and the human creators of the images it is being trained on are compensated for every click of the “generate” button (or whatever buttom churns out images at the drop of a hat).
I wanted to offer a balanced article, however, when I researched the positives of AI generative art that goes beyond the brainstorming stage and gets into actually creating the finished work (which is what concerns us here), I got half-baked arguments on the effort and art in creating prompts (which is presented as a tough artistic skill like you would expect knowing how to work watercolor or something). I also got a fairly balanced pros and cons article that basically still stops at the problem of the art-theft-dataset issue. Lastly, I got articles on the so-called democratisation of art positing that people can skip needing to learn the skillset that will allow them to make art, making it easy for anyone to do it (which is honestly, a dumb argument).
All of the arguments for AI art as a finished product (I'm not bothering with people using it as a source of inspiration and/or brainstorming) basically have the same problem: they fail to account for the need to use existing human-made art as a crutch, they fail to account for the problem of art styles being eliminated or not even developed (those people without skills would develop fresh and diverse art style sif they bothered to pick up a pencil), and they fail to account for the greed that seeks to kill artists' jobs in favor of cheap, bottom tier art that isn't any different than poo wrapped up in tinsel.
So I'll say clearly that unfortunately this is not a balanced article introducing an issue. This is an argumentative article supporting a specific side, because I can't in all honestly find a neutral point that will be sincere. Perhaps because I am an artist, regardless of what level or quality of artist, I do identify as one.
But let's get back to our issues here.
What would happen if DD were to allow AI comics?
Initially, it might not be cause for concern or bring about any changes that DDers notice. An AI comic will be one among the others that were human-made. However, the more the word will spread that DD hosts AI comics (when other webcomic hosting platforms are banning them) the more AI creators will flock to us, and bring their AI comics with them. It won't be too hard to flood DD with scores of AI generated comics simply because they are very easy to make. In the end, there's a very real possibility that the ratio of AI to human made comics be tilted, drowning out true creativity.
And if you think this problem is far away, just google “AI comics” and watch how many “how to” pages appear and how many AI generators specifically for making comics turn up.
Can you be creative with AI comics? Possibly. There are artists that have produced interesting experiments with AI. But even so, the datasets used still make this creative use of AI as a tool problematic. It's still theft, as long as the engine has been trained on images scraped from the internet without consent.
The powers that be are racing to get new regulation in place to protect creators, but as of now we're still in that “wild west” stage of things, and we need to do our own regulating and management.
If DD were to host AI comics, it would need to be heavily regulated and kept from the front page, where human made comics are featured and regulated, and only if generated by an engine with ethically procured datasets. They wouldn't be allowed to advertise on the site, either. But if we allow people on the platform only to treat them as pariahs, why allow them on at all in the first place?
Please add your own two cents! (yes, whether you disagree or agree!)
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AI, Comics, and DD
Tantz_Aerine at 12:00AM, Nov. 25, 2023
11 likes!
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InkyMoondrop at 4:26PM, Nov. 25, 2023
"You don't see the hatefulness of people using AI against artists?" I've seen people downplaying each others' issues on both sides. About 85% of the time against AI users, but nah, I wouldn't dream of assuming it's exclusive to either. Not bringing anything here just annoying trains of thought.
InkyMoondrop at 4:21PM, Nov. 25, 2023
That sums it up really, hope I managed to clarify any misunderstanding, because we might disagree about this and that, but I didn't mean to imply that I see it as the solution to anything we've discussed.
InkyMoondrop at 4:20PM, Nov. 25, 2023
@Tantz_Aerine by no means AI is a solution. AI is clearly more of a headache at this point than not for a whole lot of good people including you and many here. But most are busy pushing blame on it, while no one cares how and why it became our reality. It's all just "tech bros", "art thieves", etc so everyone would get riled up and no one would understand the many factors in play when people show a positive or neutral attitude towards such technology and uses of it. I'm not trying to sway anyone here, because people have strong opinions and strong bases for those and I respect that, plus there's a strong possiblity that I'm wrong about a lot of things, while others are right. That being said, if no one tries to truly understand why many people aren't against AI art or why they're even supportive of it, "what generated an apetite for such"... it will keep biting good people in the ass with every development. And if my own experiences are relevant, I enjoy playing the devil's advocate.
Tantz_Aerine at 3:50PM, Nov. 25, 2023
@Inky, regarding your reply on the hatefulness: if you see it on the Duck, let us know. But I find it unfair and disingenuous to accuse DD of hatefulness and divisiveness just because you see it at social media. That said, have you seen hatefulness only on that "side"? You don't see the hatefulness of people using AI against artists? What I'm trying to say is please don't bring that kind of toxicity in a place that doesn't have it. We don't do flame wars here, even when we decide to ban something or strictly regulate it. Thank you :)
Tantz_Aerine at 3:46PM, Nov. 25, 2023
@Neil, we do discuss what you're positing in the upcoming quackcast :)
Tantz_Aerine at 3:44PM, Nov. 25, 2023
@Inky you're literally describing the profitability requirements of every job, every craft, every service. And I'm not sure how well you've researched commissions, but you can find commissions for art as low as 10 to 30 USD. I won't give any value judgments to your stance, and I understand frustration, but perhaps when you're ready to be a little less salty, you'll rethink your position on skills and how they are priced or appreciated. Art is already quite depreciated and attitudes like this including your take on AI as a solution isn't going to help anyone. Consider this when you can.
NeilPurcell at 3:28PM, Nov. 25, 2023
Ozone - I appreciate your clarification on background AI assets and I'm satisfied by the answer. I tend to be a bit more pragmatic about the future of AI imagery. I'm sure you've seen me on social media talking about this. I see AI as an interesting tool, although I don't think its full potential is there yet. I do think that, eventually, these image-bashed results will be seen as kid stuff, and we'll have moved on to more truly artistic results.
NeilPurcell at 3:02PM, Nov. 25, 2023
Okay, here's Pandora's Box. There are comics on this website right now with highly questionable copyright status. There are like a jillion sprite comics on this site that are almost all Sonic or Mega Man. Are those any less ethical? I know I raised this concern back in the day, and nobody listened. Another problem is Al Schroeder's Mindmistress, which is still hosted on this site. I was good friends with Al Schroeder, and I loved him, but we all know that Al Schoeder's Mindmistress was 100% traced from photographs, TV shows, and film. His work was celebrated and featured on the front page of this website and even nominated for awards. I believe he won a few. But it's all traced. Again, if we're going to talk ethics in comics, where does this land? I don't ever want to see his comics removed from this site, but it'd be dishonest not to raise this point. I'm concerned that the objection to A.I. stems from the fact that this issue now affects artists and not just photographers and games.
InkyMoondrop at 2:18PM, Nov. 25, 2023
Perhaps my saltiness on the issue stems from another tendency online: that these people adjust their prices to a US market, where a 100$ is 3-10 hours of work's wage even if they live outside of the US while a 100$ is the money equivalent of 18 hours of work where I live. The process of learning as an alternative, when the value of my work is measured in the result regardless (without a result my years or practicing and learning amount to nothing in the eyes of the artistic community, that's pretty much given) is not very motivating in itself for insufferables like me. I spend three years practicing, a piano falls on my head and no one will even know. Maybe the artistic community needs to reevaluate the process to generate motivation.
InkyMoondrop at 1:39PM, Nov. 25, 2023
wouldn't welcome changes that allow them to save a 100 bucks or years of work on a drawing.
InkyMoondrop at 1:38PM, Nov. 25, 2023
"I don't know what you think would be a "hateful" division" I'll let you know when I see it on the Duck the way it's sometimes experienced by many on social media. People frequently say stuff like "AI is stealing, real art will never be easy. oh, you don't want to spend a 100 dollars on commission? Too bad, that's my price, either pay up or spend 5 years learning to get where I am." You don't call that selfish, that's your business. Every right not to. In my eyes it's discrediting forms of art that would be easier to produce just out of spite, because they had to struggle. Developing skills through so much time and practice can be very important, but maybe not as much as many think. Ever thought about what could be a driving force behind AI art besides profit? Eliminating the process in favor of quick results? Maybe if the process of learning would be just as valued and rewarded as the result and it wouldn't be described as "struggle" by the artists themselves, people not unlike me
Tantz_Aerine at 1:24PM, Nov. 25, 2023
And honestly, I feel it would be best to ban them entirely. AI comics should have their own hosting site. Even assuming they're art, they're an entirely different sort of art right now. THey like the photography analogy, so it's reasonable to take them up on that and request that they keep their stuff separate just like photography artists do from non-photography artists. In the end though, we'll tally up everyone's takes and that's where the policy will stem from.
Tantz_Aerine at 1:21PM, Nov. 25, 2023
Nobody ever condones hatred or harassment on the Duck. I don't know what you think would be a "hateful" division Inky, but AI would be AT LEAST treated like fanart comics are treated- they are copyright challenged, they don't get on the main page or featured. Period. And if they are art theft, they just don't get to exist on the Duck. Until we can be certain on how to assess ethical AI, all AI comics would be looked at on a case by case basis, and if we're in doubt we err on the side of caution by not allowing them on the site. Also I disagree on the selfishness comment, because the point is that to be an artist you need SKILLSETS of an artist. AI users tend to actively not want to learn them which impairs them in several components of art. That's the basis of the "sweat and tears" argument.
InkyMoondrop at 11:42AM, Nov. 25, 2023
I will never get behind the argument that just because it took someone years or decades of blood sweat and tears to draw a comic, it should take that for everyone else as well, for generations to come. Without judging anyone, that'd be an incredibly selfish take for me to adapt and creative worth doesn't exclusively come from producing such results through such means. I can see, that it's financially devastating to some already skilled artists, but perhaps there should be other means available to fix a situation that can be so easily torn down like a house of cards by a machine. On the other hand, copyright is copyright, infringing on it is not the way to introduce new technologies to the masses while hoping it'll be overlooked if enough people like it. So if IA can be ethical, it should be. I support heavy restrictions and ban in some cases on the Duck, but the hateful division and potential harassment towards people using AI will never fly with me, regardless of popular takes.
memo333 at 11:40AM, Nov. 25, 2023
jason...dont take it personal. they are NOT artists like us. they are just pretending to be artist. they are lying to themselvs. let them be. sooner or later they will stop pretending. maybe they just want to get attention.
Jason Moon at 10:58AM, Nov. 25, 2023
It makes me incredibly depressed seeing so many people using AI to create art. I put my blood sweat and tears, heart and soul into my work drawing every line and coloring every inch of the page. Making up the story as I create it for around 7 years now. And I enjoy it and it's what keeps me happy in life. As time goes on technology is only going to get better and I feel like all aspects of art will inevitably become a quick process of computer work and me myself as an artist will be obsolete. The advancement and progress of society brings me despair and I feel like someone who doesn't belong in this generation. The stress of too many people in the world, bad people coming into power, destroying old ethics, technology vastly advancing.....
memo333 at 10:37AM, Nov. 25, 2023
so they are banning mangas that use only art ai, or mangas that used art ai?--or both?
IronHorseComics at 10:09AM, Nov. 25, 2023
I think DD should do what Comic Fury already has done and ban them entirely. The issue it that it's impossible for AI databases to ethically create in the first place no matter how you train it, it will steal from real artists and creators and drown us out. It's hard enough for webcomic creators to compete with each other, and now we have this nonsense that has a completely unfair advantage of making comics very quickly.
marcorossi at 9:21AM, Nov. 25, 2023
Tangential to the point, but AIs are not like the human mind. Think about porn: if you ask me to draw a porn image in part I'll base it on stuff I've seen elsewhere, but in a large part I'll base it on stuff that arouses me, because biologically I'm made in such a way to be aroused by some images/situations. If you ask an AI to draw a porn, it will still be arousing because it will be based on all the images that have been done to human taste, but the AI itself clearly can't be aroused. Multiply this for all emotions, that usually are the object of art, and the difference is really big.
lothar at 7:58AM, Nov. 25, 2023
As OGMD quoted - "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." I'm beginning to think that all ai should be forbidden for the good of humanity. That said.... ai in art is no different than steroids in sport.
memo333 at 7:10AM, Nov. 25, 2023
I only use ai sometimes to do the backgrounds and thats it. If this site is not ok, then I dont use it BUT I will take longer to do. I say that comics that are 80-100% ai is bad, but using just 10-30% for backgrounds is fine.
OrGiveMeDeath_Ind at 7:02AM, Nov. 25, 2023
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.”
HawkandFloAdventures at 6:59AM, Nov. 25, 2023
I'm primarily focussed on my own comics for the most part. I see both sides but I think in the DDs case a ban might be necessary. If you chose to ban I'll support your decision, if you chose not too i'll still back the Duck on Patreon for the front page link. This site and it's community has given me a lot and I wish it the best. Whatever you decide I'm here for you ^^.
Ozoneocean at 5:54AM, Nov. 25, 2023
Using AI for backgrounds will be fine because people wont notice overly much and it's transformative enough with your foreground characters and details that it won't matter
Casscade at 5:53AM, Nov. 25, 2023
Everyone has made good points. I think I'm leaning towards banning as well.