You might have noticed a forum thread discussing whether AI comics should be hosted on the Duck. As always, big decisions on TOS or policy are discussed with the community on the Duck before we take any decisions. Whether DD will be hosting AI comics or not is one such decision. I urge you to read through this article, perhaps also do your own research, and then sound off in the comments here or in the forum thread.
So the issue is whether DD should host AI comics at all. And if no, why, or if yes, under which conditions (and why).
The whole issue of AI art and (lately) AI comics coming in strong to disrupt the artistic community is no news at this point: the artist community has already been pointing out the big problems AI art and its shadily collected datasets are presenting.
You would think that the comics industry is insulated from this issue, given the sequential nature of comics and graphic novels, and the need to keep characters and setting consistent throughout a work, but you'd be wrong . AI comics are already a thing. People have been making them and they want to be able to pitch them to audiences and publishers alike, alongside human-made comics.
AI art is spilling into comics as much as it is in every other segment within the art field. And we need to make a decision on what to do about it, as AI comic creators have already been knocking on the doors, so to speak, of DD asking to be hosted.
Now, if you take a look at the forum thread, you will see I'm absolutely, adamantly against the notion of AI comics art until at LEAST the datasets it's being trained on are ethically harvested/collected and the human creators of the images it is being trained on are compensated for every click of the “generate” button (or whatever buttom churns out images at the drop of a hat).
I wanted to offer a balanced article, however, when I researched the positives of AI generative art that goes beyond the brainstorming stage and gets into actually creating the finished work (which is what concerns us here), I got half-baked arguments on the effort and art in creating prompts (which is presented as a tough artistic skill like you would expect knowing how to work watercolor or something). I also got a fairly balanced pros and cons article that basically still stops at the problem of the art-theft-dataset issue. Lastly, I got articles on the so-called democratisation of art positing that people can skip needing to learn the skillset that will allow them to make art, making it easy for anyone to do it (which is honestly, a dumb argument).
All of the arguments for AI art as a finished product (I'm not bothering with people using it as a source of inspiration and/or brainstorming) basically have the same problem: they fail to account for the need to use existing human-made art as a crutch, they fail to account for the problem of art styles being eliminated or not even developed (those people without skills would develop fresh and diverse art style sif they bothered to pick up a pencil), and they fail to account for the greed that seeks to kill artists' jobs in favor of cheap, bottom tier art that isn't any different than poo wrapped up in tinsel.
So I'll say clearly that unfortunately this is not a balanced article introducing an issue. This is an argumentative article supporting a specific side, because I can't in all honestly find a neutral point that will be sincere. Perhaps because I am an artist, regardless of what level or quality of artist, I do identify as one.
But let's get back to our issues here.
What would happen if DD were to allow AI comics?
Initially, it might not be cause for concern or bring about any changes that DDers notice. An AI comic will be one among the others that were human-made. However, the more the word will spread that DD hosts AI comics (when other webcomic hosting platforms are banning them) the more AI creators will flock to us, and bring their AI comics with them. It won't be too hard to flood DD with scores of AI generated comics simply because they are very easy to make. In the end, there's a very real possibility that the ratio of AI to human made comics be tilted, drowning out true creativity.
And if you think this problem is far away, just google “AI comics” and watch how many “how to” pages appear and how many AI generators specifically for making comics turn up.
Can you be creative with AI comics? Possibly. There are artists that have produced interesting experiments with AI. But even so, the datasets used still make this creative use of AI as a tool problematic. It's still theft, as long as the engine has been trained on images scraped from the internet without consent.
The powers that be are racing to get new regulation in place to protect creators, but as of now we're still in that “wild west” stage of things, and we need to do our own regulating and management.
If DD were to host AI comics, it would need to be heavily regulated and kept from the front page, where human made comics are featured and regulated, and only if generated by an engine with ethically procured datasets. They wouldn't be allowed to advertise on the site, either. But if we allow people on the platform only to treat them as pariahs, why allow them on at all in the first place?
Please add your own two cents! (yes, whether you disagree or agree!)
Don’t forget you can now advertise on DrunkDuck for just $2 in whichever ad spot you like! The money goes straight into running the site. Want to know more? Click this link here! Or, if you want to help us keep the lights on you can sponsor us on Patreon. Every bit helps us!
Special thanks to our patrons!!
Justnopoint - Banes - RMccool - Abt_Nihil - Gunwallace - PaulEberhardt - Emma_Clare - FunctionCreep - SinJinsoku - Smkinoshita - jerrie - Chickfighter - Andreas_Helixfinger - Tantz_Aerine - Genejoke - Davey Do - Gullas - Roma - NanoCritters - Teh Andeh - Peipei - Digital_Genesis - Hushicho - Palouka - cheeko - Paneltastic - L.C.Stein - dpat57 - Bravo1102 - The Jagged - LoliGen - OrcGirl - Miss Judged - Fallopiancrusader - arborcides - ChipperChartreuse - Mogtrost - InkyMoondrop - Jgib99 - Hirokari - Orgivemedeath Ind - Mks Monsters - GregJ - HawkandFloAdventures - Soushiyo
AI, Comics, and DD
Tantz_Aerine at 12:00AM, Nov. 25, 2023
11 likes!
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved Mastodon
Ozoneocean at 7:48PM, Nov. 27, 2023
Realistically the AI imagery question is too early to really tease it all out right now. We don't know how long the crappy unethical generators will be available to use for free- That's the ONLY reason all this panic exists. If they start charging for the service this situation changes dramatically. Also AI image generators have nothing to do with art tools or anything else, this is "commissioned art" in the way Stable Diffusion and Midjourney produces it, so if you get images from there it's never yours and you're 100% wrong to take any credit, it's a commissioned piece. Nothing at all similar to sprite comics which is fair use under copyright, it's like using samples in music.
mightguy15 at 7:10PM, Nov. 27, 2023
I wouldn’t care, but a.I. art being lazy and easy to over saturate the site with are legitimate concerns. Webcomic quality is already very varied, some look amazing and some look not so great, but at least the artist still puts their heart into making the best art they can. Not so great comics still have a lot of subs, but it would be quite obnoxious also having to compete with low effort lazy slop some guy with a generator made. And being that they can crank out text as well thanks to chatgpt it’s possible for these people to not even have to bother writing the thing and be content with making tons of content with basic photoshop skills alone. I don’t at all oppose a ban, but I think a quality standard would be imposed on such comics regardless. There are a few of them on comicfury already that get literally no engagement, so it really wouldn’t matter.
Gunwallace at 2:53PM, Nov. 27, 2023
"Hal, draw me a panel showing a baby floating in space above the Earth." "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't draw that on The Duck."
PaulEberhardt at 12:06PM, Nov. 27, 2023
@Locoma: That's my main point against it. I've seen it happening on other sites and even if there is enough server space it's really obnoxious. Human artists can't compete against that rate of output and their stuff gets buried underneath. @the discussion round: there is a difference between using AI to e.g. get backgrounds done faster and using it to create entire comics (which, as Genejoke pointed out in the forum, seems to be more difficult than it looks). There is also a difference between stealing art and getting inspired by it: I love fanart in all its forms, I love referencing and lampooning stuff as Easter Eggs, and I love getting references or fanart myself, but I would never consent to letting AIs use any of my stuff, and I don't want them to get the Duck in their sights because we're too accommodating. There are worlds between nicking stuff as cheap copy-paste material and going through some effort to show your appreciation for or at least acknowledgement of a fellow artist.
mks_monsters at 9:16AM, Nov. 27, 2023
I think that if a human being didn't make it themselves which includes from the ground up, it's wrong to pass it off as your "art". You didn't create it. Something created it for you and/or you edited an existing piece. It's just wrong. And it definitely doesn't seem right to post it on a webcomic site like the Duck where one of the conditions is that your work is your own. I even respect fanart that is drawn by the authors themselves which is why fancomics are fine as long as they are non-profit. However, sprites, AIs and screenshot edits do not belong on the Duck or any comic or art site that expects you to post your own work because this is NOT your own work. A computer either did it for you or you took someone else's piece and tweaked it. It's just not right. There are other sites for that. The Duck shouldn't be one of them and from what I see in the terms of conditions, it kind of already says it's not.
Locoma at 4:35AM, Nov. 27, 2023
To me the problem with AI is the flooding of posts. In programming forums it's being banned because a lot of people paste ChatGPT answers that are not correct and misunderstand the questions, but most of all are completely flooding the site and it makes it unusable. You might have to ban it just because of space.
Tantz_Aerine at 1:01AM, Nov. 27, 2023
@Ozoneocean : oh... ok. I genuinely thought it was trolling. If it's not, absolutely they're entitled to their opinion.
InkyMoondrop at 12:29AM, Nov. 27, 2023
I think the site could use an extensive QnA section where all that's covered and can instantly referred to. It's great to talk about it forums, blogposts, podcasts, it's just something that'll come up a lot more. The most frequent questions and answers regarding the Duck's use if not covered by policies would be useful to have under a single page.
Ozoneocean at 12:28AM, Nov. 27, 2023
Unethically trained AI is NOT a human so it is impossible for the same fair use and transformative factors to apply to it. This is a machine that was fed copyrighted works owned by people without payment or consent. There is a giant different between that and an ethically trained generative AI and they will never crossover. Ethically trained AI will not illegally grab people's copyrighted work and use that to train on because it doesn't work with scraping bots. It also costs a lot more money to "train" because they PAY for their sourced images, which means they won't offer use of it up for free like the scummy midjourney or stable diffusion.
Ozoneocean at 12:22AM, Nov. 27, 2023
@Tantz- TheJaged isn't trolling. I respect their point of view. They're wrong in relating the use of AI imagery to those things, but I respect their stance. Why is it absolutely and easily provably wrong to relate the use of AI to fan art, sprite, collage, traced, art etc? Because all those things have a PLACE in our copyright laws: This is all transformative art and art covered by fair use. I understand why many people don't understand this but I went to university through the entire decade of the 1990s studying fine art and art and design, I had to learn this stuff XD
Tantz_Aerine at 1:42PM, Nov. 26, 2023
@TheJagged: I'll take your stance as pure trolling.
PaulEberhardt at 11:33AM, Nov. 26, 2023
I had an idea I outlined in the forum. Check it out: https://www.theduckwebcomics.com/forum/topic/179525/?page=2#3016697
mks_monsters at 9:54AM, Nov. 26, 2023
PPS: Sorry if I got a bit emotional. It's just that AI hits such a sensitive nerve with me. When I hear all of the stories of how many people have suffered no thanks to being replaced by AIs who only did a half baked job all because AIs work for free, it breaks my heart. I know I can't change everyone's mind, but I firmly believe that something being free and fast is not worth sacrificing the preciousness of the human element especially in something built upon the heart like art.
mks_monsters at 9:40AM, Nov. 26, 2023
PS: I am not attacking anyone. Not even inventors of AI generated image programs. It was an idea that meant well, but it is already doing more bad than good. It is hurting job opportunities and reducing art to a product to consume rather than a form of self expression that adds beauty and deep meaning to the world that lasts through the ages. And when I say it replaces job opportunities, I don't mean just artists. Live action models and actors, costume designers, scenery set designers and more are being replaced by AIs and that's not something to celebrate. These crafts are a precious part of making the medias we love. Losing them is a horrible loss to the world and art. And I'm sorry, the excuse of "we've seen it before elsewhere" is just that: an excuse to me at least. If anything, the appearance of AI generated images attempting to be normalized is the final nail in the coffin and it should be for all of us. And that is my final word on this piece.
mks_monsters at 8:19AM, Nov. 26, 2023
I see the other sides of the argument and while I respect them and see where you're coming from... they actually just drive me further to support banning AI "art". The toys, the comics, the books, the movies, the cartoons, the shows and even the iconic art like the Mona Lisa that made us were made by people and could have only been made by people. A computer could never come up with something as wacky yet genius like Superman, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or RoboCop. Art comes from the soul and life experience which machines will never have. PS: Those years of experience are a JOY not a waste of time. You build memories and a sense of achievement. Yes, you may never become perfect, but that within itself is beautiful. Imperfection is beautiful.
TheJagged at 7:27AM, Nov. 26, 2023
I'll also say this once more time: I sincerely wish i could get an AI to do this drawing stuff for me. I hate being so woefully slow in getting my ideas to a finished state. I hate the art process. I love coming up with ideas, i hate picking up a pencil and wasting hours upon hours on something that, in most cases, never feels good enough in the end. People crying that it's unfair that machines do what took you decades to learn? Fuck, imagine you didn't have to waste years of your life on mastering a craft. We should be celebrating. All this time we wasted on drawing... Liberate us from our toil, o machine god!
TheJagged at 7:21AM, Nov. 26, 2023
Heck, add this one too: Sample music. Sampling is an everyday occurrence in music, bands like Daft Punk built an entire career out of it. Some music consists entirely of samples, sample musicians may not be able to play a single instrument. I doubt even Daft Punk asks for permission for every single sample they use in their music. How is this any different than what an AI art does? The only difference is that it creates the finished product *for* you automatically. Again, that terrifying efficiency of the machine. I get not wanting to mess with AI due to the hazy legal area it is in right now, but morally? There is nothing new here that we haven't seen before in other places.
TheJagged at 7:14AM, Nov. 26, 2023
Genuine question: If you're anti AI art, are you also anti collage art, memes or sprite comics? All of that uses copyrighted material, the only difference i see it that it's easier to trace back the origins of hand-made mash-up art. But the fundamental technique (rearranging existing art, pretty much always without permission) is the same. People are scared of AI because it's new and frighteningly more effective than a human mind, but i keep saying this, the lines of human brain made art VS algorithm made art will only get blurrier. We're dinosaurs. The machine overlords are here and will make us obsolete soon enough.
PaulEberhardt at 4:42AM, Nov. 26, 2023
My bottom line is: I think a ban on AI art is the wrong way to go in the long run, but unless AI art cannot be reliably contained so it doesn't get in the way of the rest for us users who can't stand it*, I'm dead against allowing it. I can't see how this would be realistically possible in the current site design, but make it a point of consideration for the redesign and we can discuss it again. ----- * btw. by "containing" I mean something like a genre of its own or something; not a discriminating label, just a fair chance for us old-fashioned people to opt out.
PaulEberhardt at 4:36AM, Nov. 26, 2023
A while back I ranted in another forum on what annoys me about DeviantArt and others, and one major issue is how I see being swamped by AI art becoming more and more of a nuisance. I hate having to sift through loads and loads of AI-generated sameness in order to find anything I could care for. As a traditional artist I put a lot of effort and practise into anything I draw - we all do. I do it just for fun and will go on doing it no matter what, but still I feel positively offended if this gets put on the same level as something done by someone who just typed a few prompts and let the machine do the rest. And mark my words: art done "the hard way" WILL get swamped, because AI is so much faster and easier to master.
PaulEberhardt at 4:12AM, Nov. 26, 2023
My first reaction was a firm NO WAY! But, well, we are an open community that doesn't judge content, and making any restrictive rules would go against the very principles this site is rooted in. I don't like AI art, the whole concept just feels wrong to me in every way imaginable, but I nevertheless have to acknowledge that it is finding its feet as an art form in its own right, just like photography and found objects did a bit more than a hundred years ago. Back then, the established art community balked against that and today they're remembered as some inconsequential old farts stuck in the past, acting like dinosaurs who shout "heresy" at anyone suggesting that there is such a thing as meteors... So: way, after all? Well, not really if you ask me, but we'll have to find an arrangement that doesn't alienate those who want to use AI and doesn't get the Duck sidetracked as a thing of the past.
mks_monsters at 6:13PM, Nov. 25, 2023
I know I am going to sound like a hardboot for this; but when it comes to AI "art", no matter where it comes from, it's a solid, hard NO. I say ban AI generated images and comics on the Duck. Everything about AI art is a Pandora's Box that is best left closed. I get the argument that there are a lot of comics out there that use copyrighted things like Sonic, Pokemon and more, and to an extent, I do see the debate of ethics there. I think fanfiction is good clean fun and there's nothing wrong with sharing it. However, you shouldn't pass it off as an original piece or make money off of it. And the one grace I will give these fancomics is that 90% (with the exception of sprite comics) are completely drawn by the artists. There's no plagiarism or editing of existing pictures. I also must add that I am not the Queen of Fiction or the Art Police. I can't stop people from doing what they do. Moreover, I am not anyone's judge or jury. However, my vote is no to AIs on the Duck. Period.
plymayer at 5:13PM, Nov. 25, 2023
Put me down as a supporter of banning AI on the Duck. At least for now. As Tantz_Aerine said, AI comics should have their own hosting site. If AI is art, it is a different sort of art right now. Who knows, in a couple of years we might come back to the issue and think differently as things have evolved.
ksteak at 4:27PM, Nov. 25, 2023
places me against* alongside*
ksteak at 4:26PM, Nov. 25, 2023
I am a hobbyist, and I can't use a 'not in my backyard' for AI comics because the nature of these sites places against many things I may not necessarily agree with. This is out of my hands, and down to you the owners to decide what you want your webspace filled with. I would suggest to make the distinction between which part of AI you are banning. Prompt generated art to make up 90% of the visual image VS prompt generated art to be traced over or used as inspiration in the final piece.