Ozoneocean wrote:
PaulEberhardt wrote:
Anything with the word “better” in it is completely subjective.
Here is a question on the German language:
I have the impression that it's more exact than English and there's not a lot of leeway in meaning?
I'm studying it and it seems mostly as open as English, which it's very similar to, but in the past when I've talked a lot to German friends (using English), they never seemed to understand the open meanings, double meanings, triple meanings, and big leeway that a lot of English terms and sayings have.
I always put that down to them being more used to the German language and it didn't do that sort of openness as much.
What is your opinion?
Was ist Deine Meinung?
Interesting question.
I think you know, Oz, but this being a forum: I grew up bilingually but spent nearly all of my life in Germany, so my major influence is German, and I make my living by teaching English at school from initial lessons right to graduation level, which will certainly have produced some quirks of its own, and it's still Easter holidays in my region. This means I might get carried away. Let's see.
I think German could actually be just as open as English, but this openness is kept down by its speakers out of habit - if that makes any sense. Your observations may also have something to do with the way Germans learn English and perhaps with practice.
There are lots of multiple meanings and usages in German, and they, as well as preferences, vary with region, age and personal background. So far so good. I'd say in theory German should be as varied and rich of nuances as British English, and I'm not even talking about the variety of dialects both have. However, there's the German attitude towards language, and I'm afraid making it clear will seem like confirming one or two German clichés (but then they do have to come from somewhere, that's always the thing about clichés). I just might exaggerate them a bit, too.
1. Germans might not always love order and precision, but it's undeniably ingrained in our culture.
2. Therefore, we can't allow our language to run it's natural course and have the Duden instead. Sure, English has its OED and Webster too but they're just commonly acknowledged reference works as they should be. The Duden, however, is the LAW. (This is an urban myth, by the way, although way too many Germans believe it. In fact, sticking to the Duden's spellings, usages and grammar is only a mandatory regulation for public service and educational facilities, and to mind that's already bad enough.)
3. If you want to come across as educated (or just want someone who does to deign to talk to you) you'll have to present yourself as a firm upholder of this law. That may or may not include unsolicited advice to strangers, depending.
4. You may not be proud of anything German, including your language, but upholding the LAW (see 3) is different. Successfully enforcing the LAW, respectively your interpretation of it, asserts your authority.
4a. Special bonus if in doing so you can successfully expose a phrase as coined by the Nazis and therefore inherently evil: your opponent's life points in conversation get instantly reduced to zero, no matter if this phrase actually stems from the Third Reich or not.
5. Whatever you picked up as a habit is right, and Germans are stubborn.
6. Or did you actually make a mistake all these years? OMG! OMG!! OMG!!!Making mistakes is shameful!!!! Only stupid people make mistakes!!!!! Don't let on and remember to check quietly later.
7. Germans have a compulsion for numbered lists (Duh!) and every proper list has seven items (Ok I made that last part up).
What does this attitude produce?
When two people use an expression differently in conversation, they will ignore the idea that the other one could mean anything that doesn't fit their own usage. If this goes on, one of them will see it as their duty to enforce the LAW, the way they're used to it. However, what you remember having learned twenty years ago is right, so the other one will enforce the LAW too. Short break. The conversation is picked up again and starts running in parallel, two train of thoughts running on two different rails, and the first one to switch tracks loses.
Much of German humour relies on creating such a situation on purpose, twisting each others' words in their mouths and so on, the drier the better. Bravo's neighbour was 100% accurate. The TV sketches of Loriot show this extremely well, too. I'll have to see if any of them got translated against his wishes - Loriot himself thought they wouldn't catch on anywhere else.
I think we Germans tend to keep each other on our toes, to the point that some people even disapprove of someone adding too much colour to their expressions. There could be more leeway, but it's kind of discouraged. One phrase one meaning, please.
On an unrelated side note: Plattdütsch is much more open. As it has to make do with less words than German, multiple meanings is the rule. Besides, it freely adopted words from languages like High German, French, English and Dutch but speakers use them as the see fit instead of what they originally meant.
On a very much related side note: If it seems like I was bashing Germans and the German language above, it was only in an affectionate way. I love them even so, even if they do get on my nerves sometimes. It's not as bad either, most of the time.
From my experience of teaching English, I'd hazard a guess that your German friends probably know more about the leeway English could potentially give them than they realise but may be reluctant to use it fully. Learning English at school used to be a pretty mechanical affair that involves learning vocabulary and grammar by heart. Combine this with what is possibly another German thing, an attitude of being afraid of making mistakes even when it doesn't really matter, and you'll get people who get to be quite good at English, too, but stick with exactly what they've learned just to be on the safe side.
These days we're trying to break that up a bit in lessons, putting more emphasis on actual use and learning by doing. It's a delicate business to put it into practice, as many students get easily overwhelmed by getting too much leeway at once. I feel it's worth it, though, even if the stricter-than-necessary framework still needs to be dusted off from time to time to make it work.
There's one more thing I've just remembered. Spoken English does much more with intonation, the way something is said. German doesn't have that, which is also why English speakers from Germany may sometimes sound a bit monotone. Nearly all the nuances in meaning in German are in the expressions themselves rather than the way you say them, which builds a habit of looking for them only there. That may make nuances in English slightly harder to pick up - and by extension harder to try.
It's cool you're studying German, Oz. It's not the easiest language to learn, but very well worth the effort. Wenn du mal irgendwas brauchst, sag einfach Bescheid. :)
